[SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] Modern Waterfall

[Michael Wollin [e-mail] [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]]

Now I've heard everything. My client has a thing called "modern waterfall." I haven't gotten access privileges to the spec yet, but I shudder. Something about using Jira for requirements. Oy!

Michael

[Michael James [e-mail] [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]]

Somehow "modern waterfall" disturbs me less than traditional methods
masquerading as Agile (e.g. SAFe). At least it's clearly labeled as
waterfall.

--mj

Post by Michael Wollin ***@mercurysw.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
Now I've heard everything. My client has a thing called "modern
waterfall." I haven't gotten access privileges to the spec yet, but I
shudder. Something about using Jira for requirements. Oy!
Michael

[Michael Wollin [e-mail] [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]]

Yeah well... when I first heard the term, I actually said, "like SAFe?" Nobody laughed. I thought I was funny, but you gotta know your audience.

But the term is just a little unsettling, and now I have David Bowie stuck in my head.

Somehow "modern waterfall" disturbs me less than traditional methods masquerading as Agile (e.g. SAFe). At least it's clearly labeled as waterfall.
--mj

Post by Michael Wollin ***@mercurysw.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
Now I've heard everything. My client has a thing called "modern waterfall." I haven't gotten access privileges to the spec yet, but I shudder. Something about using Jira for requirements. Oy!
Michael

[srinivas chillara [e-mail] [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]]

Post by Michael Wollin ***@mercurysw.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
Yeah well... when I first heard the term, I actually said, "like SAFe?" Nobody laughed. I thought I was funny, but you gotta know your audience.

well done! for saying it. Everyone wants to be SAFely agile ; and apparently so many companies are. The number of people who think SAFe is an improvement on 'agile' is mind-numbing. Nobody laughed -->were there a lot of 'senior' executives in the room?
I think we are in an over-hyped industry, with most terms having long lost their meanings, so "modern waterfall" is another desperate new term. ( Can there be something called 'over-hyped'? what is the meaning of hyperbole, again?)

Post by Michael Wollin ***@mercurysw.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
But the term is just a little unsettling, and now I have David Bowie stuck in my head. 

Sorry, but I didn't quite catch the reference. I'd no idea poor Bowie bothered about s/w dev.
cheersSrinivasChillara Srinivas is a Scrum Coach, Scrum Trainer, XP, TDD, Test Driven Development, Scrum Training, consultant and trainer, Scrum implementation, Project Management Proficiency, PMP, Pune, Indiawww.ceezone,net


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Chillara Srinivas is a Scrum Coach, Scrum Trainer, XP, TDD, Test Driven Dev...
Chillara Srinivas Srinidhi is a Scrum Coach, Scrum Trainer for Scrum, XP, TDD (Test Driven Development), consult... | |

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[Michael Wollin [e-mail] [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]]

Modern Love

Post by srinivas chillara ***@yahoo.co.in [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]

Post by Michael Wollin ***@mercurysw.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
Yeah well... when I first heard the term, I actually said, "like SAFe?" Nobody laughed. I thought I was funny, but you gotta know your audience.

well done! for saying it. Everyone wants to be SAFely agile ; and apparently so many companies are. The number of people who think SAFe is an improvement on 'agile' is mind-numbing. Nobody laughed -->were there a lot of 'senior' executives in the room?
I think we are in an over-hyped industry, with most terms having long lost their meanings, so "modern waterfall" is another desperate new term. ( Can there be something called 'over-hyped'? what is the meaning of hyperbole, again?)

Post by Michael Wollin ***@mercurysw.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
But the term is just a little unsettling, and now I have David Bowie stuck in my head.

Sorry, but I didn't quite catch the reference. I'd no idea poor Bowie bothered about s/w dev.
cheers
Srinivas
Chillara Srinivas is a Scrum Coach, Scrum Trainer, XP, TDD, Test Driven Development, Scrum Training, consultant and trainer, Scrum implementation, Project Management Proficiency, PMP, Pune, India
www.ceezone,net
Chillara Srinivas is a Scrum Coach, Scrum Trainer, XP, TDD, Test Driven Dev...
Chillara Srinivas Srinidhi is a Scrum Coach, Scrum Trainer for Scrum, XP, TDD (Test Driven Development), consult...

[Eric Gunnerson [e-mail] [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]]

SAFe is very appealing to management because it fits into their view of how the world should work (hierarchical, command and control) and it allows them to claim that they are now “agile” (I mean, it says *AGILE* right there in the name) without having to change what they do.

That’s a win-win.

A lot of things that used to confuse me became much clearer when I realized that managers – and I’m painting with an overly broad brush here – are primarily motivated by the success of their management careers, not by the success of the company. I used to think that management was out of touch and did not understand the issues with the current ways of doing things. Finally – I’m a slow learner – I realized that the reason things were the way they were is that for management, the issues that I was seeing weren’t bugs, they were features.



From: ***@yahoogroups.com [mailto:***@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2017 8:16 PM
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] Modern Waterfall

Post by Michael Wollin ***@mercurysw.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
Yeah well... when I first heard the term, I actually said, "like SAFe?" Nobody laughed. I thought I was funny, but you gotta know your audience.

well done! for saying it. Everyone wants to be SAFely agile ; and apparently so many companies are. The number of people who think SAFe is an improvement on 'agile' is mind-numbing. Nobody laughed -->were there a lot of 'senior' executives in the room?
I think we are in an over-hyped industry, with most terms having long lost their meanings, so "modern waterfall" is another desperate new term. ( Can there be something called 'over-hyped'? what is the meaning of hyperbole, again?)

Post by Michael Wollin ***@mercurysw.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
But the term is just a little unsettling, and now I have David Bowie stuck in my head.

Sorry, but I didn't quite catch the reference. I'd no idea poor Bowie bothered about s/w dev.

cheers
Srinivas
Chillara Srinivas is a Scrum Coach, Scrum Trainer, XP, TDD, Test Driven Development, Scrum Training, consultant and trainer, Scrum implementation, Project Management Proficiency, PMP, Pune, India<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scrumcoach.co.in%2F&data=02%7C01%7CEric.Gunnerson%40microsoft.com%7Cff21ab24a7604ca5c73708d4f01e9796%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636397461567849888&sdata=QViLF3nv%2Fr%2FVniUuZ8%2BLbdZeGRkWjnVH2%2F9yMhoBReI%3D&reserved=0>
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Chillara Srinivas is a Scrum Coach, Scrum Trainer, XP, TDD, Test Driven Dev...
Chillara Srinivas Srinidhi is a Scrum Coach, Scrum Trainer for Scrum, XP, TDD (Test Driven Development), consult...

[Michael Wollin [e-mail] [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]]

“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”


― Upton Sinclair <https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/23510.Upton_Sinclair>

Post by Eric Gunnerson ***@microsoft.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
SAFe is very appealing to management because it fits into their view of how the world should work (hierarchical, command and control) and it allows them to claim that they are now “agile” (I mean, it says *AGILE* right there in the name) without having to change what they do.
That’s a win-win.
A lot of things that used to confuse me became much clearer when I realized that managers – and I’m painting with an overly broad brush here – are primarily motivated by the success of their management careers, not by the success of the company. I used to think that management was out of touch and did not understand the issues with the current ways of doing things. Finally – I’m a slow learner – I realized that the reason things were the way they were is that for management, the issues that I was seeing weren’t bugs, they were features.
  <>
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2017 8:16 PM
Subject: Re: [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] Modern Waterfall

Post by Michael Wollin ***@mercurysw.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
Yeah well... when I first heard the term, I actually said, "like SAFe?" Nobody laughed. I thought I was funny, but you gotta know your audience.

well done! for saying it. Everyone wants to be SAFely agile ; and apparently so many companies are. The number of people who think SAFe is an improvement on 'agile' is mind-numbing. Nobody laughed -->were there a lot of 'senior' executives in the room?
I think we are in an over-hyped industry, with most terms having long lost their meanings, so "modern waterfall" is another desperate new term. ( Can there be something called 'over-hyped'? what is the meaning of hyperbole, again?)

Post by Michael Wollin ***@mercurysw.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
But the term is just a little unsettling, and now I have David Bowie stuck in my head.

Sorry, but I didn't quite catch the reference. I'd no idea poor Bowie bothered about s/w dev.
cheers
Srinivas
Chillara Srinivas is a Scrum Coach, Scrum Trainer, XP, TDD, Test Driven Development, Scrum Training, consultant and trainer, Scrum implementation, Project Management Proficiency, PMP, Pune, India <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scrumcoach.co.in%2F&data=02%7C01%7CEric.Gunnerson%40microsoft.com%7Cff21ab24a7604ca5c73708d4f01e9796%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636397461567849888&sdata=QViLF3nv%2Fr%2FVniUuZ8%2BLbdZeGRkWjnVH2%2F9yMhoBReI%3D&reserved=0>
www.ceezone,net <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scrumcoach.co.in%2F&data=02%7C01%7CEric.Gunnerson%40microsoft.com%7Cff21ab24a7604ca5c73708d4f01e9796%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636397461567849888&sdata=QViLF3nv%2Fr%2FVniUuZ8%2BLbdZeGRkWjnVH2%2F9yMhoBReI%3D&reserved=0>
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Chillara Srinivas is a Scrum Coach, Scrum Trainer, XP, TDD, Test Driven Dev...
Chillara Srinivas Srinidhi is a Scrum Coach, Scrum Trainer for Scrum, XP, TDD (Test Driven Development), consult...

[Don Gray [e-mail] [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]]

Post by Michael Wollin ***@mercurysw.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”
― Upton Sinclair <https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/23510.Upton_Sinclair>

“If you give a manager a numerical target, he’ll make it even if he has to destroy the company in the process.”
W. Edwards Deming

Sincerely,

Don Gray - Exploring Human Systems in Action
[phone]

The only way to discover the limits of the possible is to go beyond them into the impossible.
Arthur C. Clarke

Upcoming Workshops:

<http://coachingbeyondtheteam.com/>
Coaching Beyond the Team <http://coachingbeyondtheteam.com/>
Sep 12 - 14, 2017
Toronto, ON Problem Solving Leadership <http://www.estherderby.com/problem-solving-leadership-psl>
Nov 5 - 10, 2017
Albuquerque, NM, USA

[srinivas chillara [e-mail] [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]]

Brilliant, shall we try women, then?
cheers
Srinivas
PS: Thankfully I'm not at Google!

From: "Michael Wollin ***@mercurysw.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, 31 August 2017 9:09 PM
Subject: Re: [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] Modern Waterfall

 
“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”

― Upton Sinclair

On Aug 31, 2017, at 11:36 AM, Eric Gunnerson ***@microsoft.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] <***@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

SAFe is very appealing to management because it fits into their view of how the world should work (hierarchical, command and control) and it allows them to claim that they are now “agile” (I mean, it says *AGILE* right there in the name) without having to change what they do.  That’s a win-win.  A lot of things that used to confuse me became much clearer when I realized that managers – and I’m painting with an overly broad brush here – are primarily motivated by the success of their management careers, not by the success of the company. I used to think that management was out of touch and did not understand the issues with the current ways of doing things. Finally – I’m a slow learner – I realized that the reason things were the way they were is that for management, the issues that I was seeing weren’t bugs, they were features.      From: ***@yahoogroups.com [mailto:***@yahoogroups.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2017 8:16 PM
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] Modern Waterfall    >Yeah well... when I first heard the term, I actually said, "like SAFe?" Nobody laughed. I thought I was funny, but you gotta know your audience.     well done! for saying it. Everyone wants to be SAFely agile ; and apparently so many companies are. The number of people who think SAFe is an improvement on 'agile' is mind-numbing. Nobody laughed -->were there a lot of 'senior' executives in the room?I think we are in an over-hyped industry, with most terms having long lost their meanings, so "modern waterfall" is another desperate new term. ( Can there be something called 'over-hyped'? what is the meaning of hyperbole, again?)    > But the term is just a little unsettling, and now I have David Bowie stuck in my head.   Sorry, but I didn't quite catch the reference. I'd no idea poor Bowie bothered about s/w dev.  cheersSrinivasChillara Srinivas is a Scrum Coach, Scrum Trainer, XP, TDD, Test Driven Development, Scrum Training, consultant and trainer, Scrum implementation, Project Management Proficiency, PMP, Pune, Indiawww.ceezone,net
 
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Chillara Srinivas is a Scrum Coach, Scrum Trainer, XP, TDD, Test Driven Dev...
Chillara Srinivas Srinidhi is a Scrum Coach, Scrum Trainer for Scrum, XP, TDD (Test Driven Development), consult... | |

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[Steve Ropa [e-mail] [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]]

I’m always a little saddened when I see someone question the motivations of a separate group. I’ve been a manager, and I’ve worked with many managers. I would say that far more of them were ultimately interested in the success of the company than their own careers. I would also say that in the management discussion groups I’ve seen, they all seem to feel that devs aren’t motivated by the success of the company, but by their desire to do cool stuff.

If the original intent for Agile was, among other things, to heal the rift between business and development, I’d say we failed. Mostly because both “sides” are waiting for the other to change.

I’m not a fan of SAFe, and for the reason you mention. It makes it too easy to keep doing what we’ve always been doing and convince yourself that this time it will work. I’m just not comfortable saying its because “management” doesn’t’ care if things get better.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Eric Gunnerson ***@microsoft.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 9:37 AM
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] Modern Waterfall

 
SAFe is very appealing to management because it fits into their view of how the world should work (hierarchical, command and control) and it allows them to claim that they are now “agile” (I mean, it says *AGILE* right there in the name) without having to change what they do.
 
That’s a win-win.
 
A lot of things that used to confuse me became much clearer when I realized that managers – and I’m painting with an overly broad brush here – are primarily motivated by the success of their management careers, not by the success of the company. I used to think that management was out of touch and did not understand the issues with the current ways of doing things. Finally – I’m a slow learner – I realized that the reason things were the way they were is that for management, the issues that I was seeing weren’t bugs, they were features.
 
 
 
From: ***@yahoogroups.com [mailto:***@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2017 8:16 PM
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] Modern Waterfall
 
 

Post by Michael Wollin ***@mercurysw.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
Yeah well... when I first heard the term, I actually said, "like SAFe?" Nobody laughed. I thought I was funny, but you gotta know your audience.

 
 
well done! for saying it. Everyone wants to be SAFely agile ; and apparently so many companies are. The number of people who think SAFe is an improvement on 'agile' is mind-numbing. Nobody laughed -->were there a lot of 'senior' executives in the room?
I think we are in an over-hyped industry, with most terms having long lost their meanings, so "modern waterfall" is another desperate new term. ( Can there be something called 'over-hyped'? what is the meaning of hyperbole, again?)
 
 

Post by Michael Wollin ***@mercurysw.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
But the term is just a little unsettling, and now I have David Bowie stuck in my head. 

 
Sorry, but I didn't quite catch the reference. I'd no idea poor Bowie bothered about s/w dev.
 
cheers
Srinivas
Chillara Srinivas is a Scrum Coach, Scrum Trainer, XP, TDD, Test Driven Development, Scrum Training, consultant and trainer, Scrum implementation, Project Management Proficiency, PMP, Pune, India
www.ceezone,net


 
Chillara Srinivas is a Scrum Coach, Scrum Trainer, XP, TDD, Test Driven Dev...
Chillara Srinivas Srinidhi is a Scrum Coach, Scrum Trainer for Scrum, XP, TDD (Test Driven Development), consult...  
 
 

[Eric Gunnerson [e-mail] [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]]

This happens to be one of my hot buttons recently. I’ll see if I can make my position clearer.

I have also been a manager and worked with many managers. With the exception of existential crisis – cases where the company/division/job might go away if the status quo persists – I’ve known very few who were willing to do things differently to get more accomplished. And by “different”, I mean things like:


* My day-to-day job would change.
* I would need to justify my different way of working with my manager.
* I would need to learn to use something different than “command and control”

I sympathize with and commend those who have tried/are trying to do these sorts of things, because in most organizations a very frustrating exercise, and it can be a risky from a career perspective.

My experience is that there are usually obvious things that the team can do that will get them something like a 2x improvement in productivity. There are obvious things that the team knows are slowing them down. But they don’t get done. In the old days, we used to say that nobody ever got fired for buying IBM. In most organizations, nobody ever got fired for using the same development/management approach that has been used for the past decade.

As for motivation of dev teams, I once had a dev team working on a part of an unexciting internal product that the other teams in the company were forced to use and actively disliked (and for good reason). And despite the uncoolness and negative feedback, we ended up with a team that was very tight and very productive. Part of that was having a bit of air cover from my manager, but at least some of it was my willingness to view my job as one of facilitating team progress rather than directing it.

I think the problem wrt motivation is a lack of understanding of what really motivates people; I think Daniel Pink has it

though I like to add “community” to his list. That, and the common “what do I do as a manager of an agile team?” question.

From: ***@yahoogroups.com [mailto:***@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 8:54 AM
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] Modern Waterfall [1 Attachment]


[Attachment(s) from Steve Ropa included below]
I’m always a little saddened when I see someone question the motivations of a separate group. I’ve been a manager, and I’ve worked with many managers. I would say that far more of them were ultimately interested in the success of the company than their own careers. I would also say that in the management discussion groups I’ve seen, they all seem to feel that devs aren’t motivated by the success of the company, but by their desire to do cool stuff.

If the original intent for Agile was, among other things, to heal the rift between business and development, I’d say we failed. Mostly because both “sides” are waiting for the other to change.

I’m not a fan of SAFe, and for the reason you mention. It makes it too easy to keep doing what we’ve always been doing and convince yourself that this time it will work. I’m just not comfortable saying its because “management” doesn’t’ care if things get better.

Sent from Mail<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgo.microsoft.com%2Ffwlink%2F%3FLinkId%3D550986&data=02%7C01%7CEric.Gunnerson%40microsoft.com%7C59886ee15b984c76709e08d4f097f511%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636397982830712288&sdata=OADUMCG%2FvyGHJzqQQ1s1UvFXXiJcGNirgWGimfqeNOY%3D&reserved=0> for Windows 10

From: Eric Gunnerson ***@microsoft.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]<mailto:***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 9:37 AM
To: ***@yahoogroups.com<mailto:***@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] Modern Waterfall


SAFe is very appealing to management because it fits into their view of how the world should work (hierarchical, command and control) and it allows them to claim that they are now “agile” (I mean, it says *AGILE* right there in the name) without having to change what they do.

That’s a win-win.

A lot of things that used to confuse me became much clearer when I realized that managers – and I’m painting with an overly broad brush here – are primarily motivated by the success of their management careers, not by the success of the company. I used to think that management was out of touch and did not understand the issues with the current ways of doing things. Finally – I’m a slow learner – I realized that the reason things were the way they were is that for management, the issues that I was seeing weren’t bugs, they were features.



From: ***@yahoogroups.com<mailto:***@yahoogroups.com> [mailto:***@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2017 8:16 PM
To: ***@yahoogroups.com<mailto:***@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] Modern Waterfall

Post by Michael Wollin ***@mercurysw.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
Yeah well... when I first heard the term, I actually said, "like SAFe?" Nobody laughed. I thought I was funny, but you gotta know your audience.

well done! for saying it. Everyone wants to be SAFely agile ; and apparently so many companies are. The number of people who think SAFe is an improvement on 'agile' is mind-numbing. Nobody laughed -->were there a lot of 'senior' executives in the room?
I think we are in an over-hyped industry, with most terms having long lost their meanings, so "modern waterfall" is another desperate new term. ( Can there be something called 'over-hyped'? what is the meaning of hyperbole, again?)

Post by Michael Wollin ***@mercurysw.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
But the term is just a little unsettling, and now I have David Bowie stuck in my head.

Sorry, but I didn't quite catch the reference. I'd no idea poor Bowie bothered about s/w dev.

cheers
Srinivas
Chillara Srinivas is a Scrum Coach, Scrum Trainer, XP, TDD, Test Driven Development, Scrum Training, consultant and trainer, Scrum implementation, Project Management Proficiency, PMP, Pune, India<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scrumcoach.co.in%2F&data=02%7C01%7CEric.Gunnerson%40microsoft.com%7Cff21ab24a7604ca5c73708d4f01e9796%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636397461567849888&sdata=QViLF3nv%2Fr%2FVniUuZ8%2BLbdZeGRkWjnVH2%2F9yMhoBReI%3D&reserved=0>
www.ceezone,net<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scrumcoach.co.in%2F&data=02%7C01%7CEric.Gunnerson%40microsoft.com%7Cff21ab24a7604ca5c73708d4f01e9796%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636397461567849888&sdata=QViLF3nv%2Fr%2FVniUuZ8%2BLbdZeGRkWjnVH2%2F9yMhoBReI%3D&reserved=0>

<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scrumcoach.co.in%2F&data=02%7C01%7CEric.Gunnerson%40microsoft.com%7Cff21ab24a7604ca5c73708d4f01e9796%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636397461567849888&sdata=QViLF3nv%2Fr%2FVniUuZ8%2BLbdZeGRkWjnVH2%2F9yMhoBReI%3D&reserved=0>





Chillara Srinivas is a Scrum Coach, Scrum Trainer, XP, TDD, Test Driven Dev...
Chillara Srinivas Srinidhi is a Scrum Coach, Scrum Trainer for Scrum, XP, TDD (Test Driven Development), consult...

[Steve Ropa [e-mail] [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]]

I think you and I are on the exact same wavelength. Managers fear change, no question about it. I also defer to Pink, and I would say that managers are just as likely to respond to Autonomy/Master/Purpose if given the chance.

“Community” interests me. That would be an interesting area to explore.

I would actually say that much of Agile obviates the need for a manager, per se. I always saw my role when a manager as a facilitator, and that role is ably covered by Scrum Master/Coach depending on your flavor.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Eric Gunnerson ***@microsoft.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 1:52 PM
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] Modern Waterfall

 
This happens to be one of my hot buttons recently. I’ll see if I can make my position clearer.
 
I have also been a manager and worked with many managers. With the exception of existential crisis – cases where the company/division/job might go away if the status quo persists – I’ve known very few who were willing to do things differently to get more accomplished. And by “different”, I mean things like:
 
• My day-to-day job would change.
• I would need to justify my different way of working with my manager.
• I would need to learn to use something different than “command and control”
 
I sympathize with and commend those who have tried/are trying to do these sorts of things, because in most organizations a very frustrating exercise, and it can be a risky from a career perspective.
 
My experience is that there are usually obvious things that the team can do that will get them something like a 2x improvement in productivity. There are obvious things that the team knows are slowing them down. But they don’t get done.  In the old days, we used to say that nobody ever got fired for buying IBM. In most organizations, nobody ever got fired for using the same development/management approach that has been used for the past decade.  
 
As for motivation of dev teams, I once had a dev team working on a part of an unexciting internal product that the other teams in the company were forced to use and actively disliked (and for good reason). And despite the uncoolness and negative feedback, we ended up with a team that was very tight and very productive. Part of that was having a bit of air cover from my manager, but at least some of it was my willingness to view my job as one of facilitating team progress rather than directing it.
 
I think the problem wrt motivation is a lack of understanding of what really motivates people; I think Daniel Pink has it right, though I like to add “community” to his list. That, and the common “what do I do as a manager of an agile team?” question.
 
From: ***@yahoogroups.com [mailto:***@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 8:54 AM
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] Modern Waterfall [1 Attachment]
 
 
[Attachment(s) from Steve Ropa included below]
I’m always a little saddened when I see someone question the motivations of a separate group.  I’ve been a manager, and I’ve worked with many managers.  I would say that far more of them were ultimately interested in the success of the company than their own careers.  I would also say that in the management discussion groups I’ve seen, they all seem to feel that devs aren’t motivated by the success of the company, but by their desire to do cool stuff. 
 
If the original intent for Agile was, among other things, to heal the rift between business and development, I’d say we failed.  Mostly because both “sides” are waiting for the other to change.
 
I’m not a fan of SAFe, and for the reason you mention.  It makes it too easy to keep doing what we’ve always been doing and convince yourself that this time it will work.  I’m just not comfortable saying its because “management” doesn’t’ care if things get better.
 
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
 
From: Eric Gunnerson ***@microsoft.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 9:37 AM
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] Modern Waterfall
 
 
SAFe is very appealing to management because it fits into their view of how the world should work (hierarchical, command and control) and it allows them to claim that they are now “agile” (I mean, it says *AGILE* right there in the name) without having to change what they do.
 
That’s a win-win.
 
A lot of things that used to confuse me became much clearer when I realized that managers – and I’m painting with an overly broad brush here – are primarily motivated by the success of their management careers, not by the success of the company. I used to think that management was out of touch and did not understand the issues with the current ways of doing things. Finally – I’m a slow learner – I realized that the reason things were the way they were is that for management, the issues that I was seeing weren’t bugs, they were features.
 
 
 
From: ***@yahoogroups.com [mailto:***@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2017 8:16 PM
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] Modern Waterfall
 
 

Post by Michael Wollin ***@mercurysw.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
Yeah well... when I first heard the term, I actually said, "like SAFe?" Nobody laughed. I thought I was funny, but you gotta know your audience.

 
 
well done! for saying it. Everyone wants to be SAFely agile ; and apparently so many companies are. The number of people who think SAFe is an improvement on 'agile' is mind-numbing. Nobody laughed -->were there a lot of 'senior' executives in the room?
I think we are in an over-hyped industry, with most terms having long lost their meanings, so "modern waterfall" is another desperate new term. ( Can there be something called 'over-hyped'? what is the meaning of hyperbole, again?)
 
 

Post by Michael Wollin ***@mercurysw.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
But the term is just a little unsettling, and now I have David Bowie stuck in my head. 

 
Sorry, but I didn't quite catch the reference. I'd no idea poor Bowie bothered about s/w dev.
 
cheers
Srinivas
Chillara Srinivas is a Scrum Coach, Scrum Trainer, XP, TDD, Test Driven Development, Scrum Training, consultant and trainer, Scrum implementation, Project Management Proficiency, PMP, Pune, India
www.ceezone,net


 
Chillara Srinivas is a Scrum Coach, Scrum Trainer, XP, TDD, Test Driven Dev...
Chillara Srinivas Srinidhi is a Scrum Coach, Scrum Trainer for Scrum, XP, TDD (Test Driven Development), consult...  
 
 
 

[Eric Gunnerson [e-mail] [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]]

“Community” came out of a discussion with my wife, who is a university lecturer.

I had been talking with her about Pink’s work, and I mentioned that there seemed to be something missing WRT agile because:


* We all know that one of the key features of agile is that we do things in groups
* In good agile teams you regularly see people deemphasize their own desires for the good of the team.
* It’s more relaxing and fun to own/accomplish a task as a group.
* Teams do cool things, like a team that finds out that one team member is avoiding harder stories because he feels his developer skills aren’t as good as the others on the team, and the team tells him that it’s their job to pair with him so he can improve his skills.

My wife suggested that the word “community” was a good overall description, and I alternate using it with a word that I like better, which is “Family”.

For me, it’s one of the key things around the saying, “If you have never been on a good agile team, you can’t understand what it will be like, but once you have, you will never want to work any other way”.

From: ***@yahoogroups.com [mailto:***@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 1:54 PM
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] Modern Waterfall [1 Attachment]


[Attachment(s) from Steve Ropa included below]
I think you and I are on the exact same wavelength. Managers fear change, no question about it. I also defer to Pink, and I would say that managers are just as likely to respond to Autonomy/Master/Purpose if given the chance.

“Community” interests me. That would be an interesting area to explore.

I would actually say that much of Agile obviates the need for a manager, per se. I always saw my role when a manager as a facilitator, and that role is ably covered by Scrum Master/Coach depending on your flavor.

Sent from Mail<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgo.microsoft.com%2Ffwlink%2F%3FLinkId%3D550986&data=02%7C01%7CEric.Gunnerson%40microsoft.com%7C952fa16bf2e04e7dad5c08d4f0b282c1%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636398096871679124&sdata=ybeR4DgKAV%2FjGdO5pOYPTHJ2smssXIM7K%2BxvmYKjcew%3D&reserved=0> for Windows 10

From: Eric Gunnerson ***@microsoft.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]<mailto:***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 1:52 PM
To: ***@yahoogroups.com<mailto:***@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] Modern Waterfall


This happens to be one of my hot buttons recently. I’ll see if I can make my position clearer.

I have also been a manager and worked with many managers. With the exception of existential crisis – cases where the company/division/job might go away if the status quo persists – I’ve known very few who were willing to do things differently to get more accomplished. And by “different”, I mean things like:


* My day-to-day job would change.
* I would need to justify my different way of working with my manager.
* I would need to learn to use something different than “command and control”

I sympathize with and commend those who have tried/are trying to do these sorts of things, because in most organizations a very frustrating exercise, and it can be a risky from a career perspective.

My experience is that there are usually obvious things that the team can do that will get them something like a 2x improvement in productivity. There are obvious things that the team knows are slowing them down. But they don’t get done. In the old days, we used to say that nobody ever got fired for buying IBM. In most organizations, nobody ever got fired for using the same development/management approach that has been used for the past decade.

As for motivation of dev teams, I once had a dev team working on a part of an unexciting internal product that the other teams in the company were forced to use and actively disliked (and for good reason). And despite the uncoolness and negative feedback, we ended up with a team that was very tight and very productive. Part of that was having a bit of air cover from my manager, but at least some of it was my willingness to view my job as one of facilitating team progress rather than directing it.

I think the problem wrt motivation is a lack of understanding of what really motivates people; I think Daniel Pink has it right<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Du6XAPnuFjJc&data=02%7C01%7CEric.Gunnerson%40microsoft.com%7C952fa16bf2e04e7dad5c08d4f0b282c1%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636398096871679124&sdata=TqQOsrZtGBTJefX%2BpHxkxPpdVoI4Ttgpni5TAd85T6s%3D&reserved=0>, though I like to add “community” to his list. That, and the common “what do I do as a manager of an agile team?” question.

From: ***@yahoogroups.com [mailto:***@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 8:54 AM
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] Modern Waterfall [1 Attachment]


[Attachment(s) from Steve Ropa included below]
I’m always a little saddened when I see someone question the motivations of a separate group. I’ve been a manager, and I’ve worked with many managers. I would say that far more of them were ultimately interested in the success of the company than their own careers. I would also say that in the management discussion groups I’ve seen, they all seem to feel that devs aren’t motivated by the success of the company, but by their desire to do cool stuff.

If the original intent for Agile was, among other things, to heal the rift between business and development, I’d say we failed. Mostly because both “sides” are waiting for the other to change.

I’m not a fan of SAFe, and for the reason you mention. It makes it too easy to keep doing what we’ve always been doing and convince yourself that this time it will work. I’m just not comfortable saying its because “management” doesn’t’ care if things get better.

Sent from Mail<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgo.microsoft.com%2Ffwlink%2F%3FLinkId%3D550986&data=02%7C01%7CEric.Gunnerson%40microsoft.com%7C59886ee15b984c76709e08d4f097f511%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636397982830712288&sdata=OADUMCG%2FvyGHJzqQQ1s1UvFXXiJcGNirgWGimfqeNOY%3D&reserved=0> for Windows 10

From: Eric Gunnerson ***@microsoft.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]<mailto:***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 9:37 AM
To: ***@yahoogroups.com<mailto:***@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] Modern Waterfall


SAFe is very appealing to management because it fits into their view of how the world should work (hierarchical, command and control) and it allows them to claim that they are now “agile” (I mean, it says *AGILE* right there in the name) without having to change what they do.

That’s a win-win.

A lot of things that used to confuse me became much clearer when I realized that managers – and I’m painting with an overly broad brush here – are primarily motivated by the success of their management careers, not by the success of the company. I used to think that management was out of touch and did not understand the issues with the current ways of doing things. Finally – I’m a slow learner – I realized that the reason things were the way they were is that for management, the issues that I was seeing weren’t bugs, they were features.



From: ***@yahoogroups.com<mailto:***@yahoogroups.com> [mailto:***@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2017 8:16 PM
To: ***@yahoogroups.com<mailto:***@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] Modern Waterfall

Post by Michael Wollin ***@mercurysw.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
Yeah well... when I first heard the term, I actually said, "like SAFe?" Nobody laughed. I thought I was funny, but you gotta know your audience.

well done! for saying it. Everyone wants to be SAFely agile ; and apparently so many companies are. The number of people who think SAFe is an improvement on 'agile' is mind-numbing. Nobody laughed -->were there a lot of 'senior' executives in the room?
I think we are in an over-hyped industry, with most terms having long lost their meanings, so "modern waterfall" is another desperate new term. ( Can there be something called 'over-hyped'? what is the meaning of hyperbole, again?)

Post by Michael Wollin ***@mercurysw.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
But the term is just a little unsettling, and now I have David Bowie stuck in my head.

Sorry, but I didn't quite catch the reference. I'd no idea poor Bowie bothered about s/w dev.

cheers
Srinivas
Chillara Srinivas is a Scrum Coach, Scrum Trainer, XP, TDD, Test Driven Development, Scrum Training, consultant and trainer, Scrum implementation, Project Management Proficiency, PMP, Pune, India<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scrumcoach.co.in%2F&data=02%7C01%7CEric.Gunnerson%40microsoft.com%7Cff21ab24a7604ca5c73708d4f01e9796%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636397461567849888&sdata=QViLF3nv%2Fr%2FVniUuZ8%2BLbdZeGRkWjnVH2%2F9yMhoBReI%3D&reserved=0>
www.ceezone,net<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scrumcoach.co.in%2F&data=02%7C01%7CEric.Gunnerson%40microsoft.com%7Cff21ab24a7604ca5c73708d4f01e9796%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636397461567849888&sdata=QViLF3nv%2Fr%2FVniUuZ8%2BLbdZeGRkWjnVH2%2F9yMhoBReI%3D&reserved=0>

<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scrumcoach.co.in%2F&data=02%7C01%7CEric.Gunnerson%40microsoft.com%7Cff21ab24a7604ca5c73708d4f01e9796%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636397461567849888&sdata=QViLF3nv%2Fr%2FVniUuZ8%2BLbdZeGRkWjnVH2%2F9yMhoBReI%3D&reserved=0>





Chillara Srinivas is a Scrum Coach, Scrum Trainer, XP, TDD, Test Driven Dev...
Chillara Srinivas Srinidhi is a Scrum Coach, Scrum Trainer for Scrum, XP, TDD (Test Driven Development), consult...

[Steve Ropa [e-mail] [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]]

That’s Good Stuff. I think I prefer community over family. Some people have less than positive connotations attached to their family experience, unfortunately.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Eric Gunnerson ***@microsoft.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
Sent: Friday, September 1, 2017 10:21 AM
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] Modern Waterfall

 
“Community” came out of a discussion with my wife, who is a university lecturer.
 
I had been talking with her about Pink’s work, and I mentioned that there seemed to be something missing WRT agile because:
 
• We all know that one of the key features of agile is that we do things in groups
• In good agile teams you regularly see people deemphasize their own desires for the good of the team.
• It’s more relaxing and fun to own/accomplish a task as a group.
• Teams do cool things, like a team that finds out that one team member is avoiding harder stories because he feels his developer skills aren’t as good as the others on the team, and the team tells him that it’s their job to pair with him so he can improve his skills.
 
My wife suggested that the word “community” was a good overall description, and I alternate using it with a word that I like better, which is “Family”.
 
For me, it’s one of the key things around the saying, “If you have never been on a good agile team, you can’t understand what it will be like, but once you have, you will never want to work any other way”.
 
From: ***@yahoogroups.com [mailto:***@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 1:54 PM
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] Modern Waterfall [1 Attachment]
 
 
[Attachment(s) from Steve Ropa included below]
I think you and I are on the exact same wavelength.  Managers fear change, no question about it.  I also defer to Pink, and I would say that managers are just as likely to respond to Autonomy/Master/Purpose if given the chance. 
 
“Community” interests me.  That would be an interesting area to explore.
 
I would actually say that much of Agile obviates the need for a manager, per se.  I always saw my role when a manager as a facilitator, and that role is ably covered by Scrum Master/Coach depending on your flavor.
 
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
 
From: Eric Gunnerson ***@microsoft.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 1:52 PM
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] Modern Waterfall
 
 
This happens to be one of my hot buttons recently. I’ll see if I can make my position clearer.
 
I have also been a manager and worked with many managers. With the exception of existential crisis – cases where the company/division/job might go away if the status quo persists – I’ve known very few who were willing to do things differently to get more accomplished. And by “different”, I mean things like:
 
• My day-to-day job would change.
• I would need to justify my different way of working with my manager.
• I would need to learn to use something different than “command and control”
 
I sympathize with and commend those who have tried/are trying to do these sorts of things, because in most organizations a very frustrating exercise, and it can be a risky from a career perspective.
 
My experience is that there are usually obvious things that the team can do that will get them something like a 2x improvement in productivity. There are obvious things that the team knows are slowing them down. But they don’t get done.  In the old days, we used to say that nobody ever got fired for buying IBM. In most organizations, nobody ever got fired for using the same development/management approach that has been used for the past decade.  
 
As for motivation of dev teams, I once had a dev team working on a part of an unexciting internal product that the other teams in the company were forced to use and actively disliked (and for good reason). And despite the uncoolness and negative feedback, we ended up with a team that was very tight and very productive. Part of that was having a bit of air cover from my manager, but at least some of it was my willingness to view my job as one of facilitating team progress rather than directing it.
 
I think the problem wrt motivation is a lack of understanding of what really motivates people; I think Daniel Pink has it right, though I like to add “community” to his list. That, and the common “what do I do as a manager of an agile team?” question.
 
From: ***@yahoogroups.com [mailto:***@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 8:54 AM
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] Modern Waterfall [1 Attachment]
 
 
[Attachment(s) from Steve Ropa included below]
I’m always a little saddened when I see someone question the motivations of a separate group.  I’ve been a manager, and I’ve worked with many managers.  I would say that far more of them were ultimately interested in the success of the company than their own careers.  I would also say that in the management discussion groups I’ve seen, they all seem to feel that devs aren’t motivated by the success of the company, but by their desire to do cool stuff. 
 
If the original intent for Agile was, among other things, to heal the rift between business and development, I’d say we failed.  Mostly because both “sides” are waiting for the other to change.
 
I’m not a fan of SAFe, and for the reason you mention.  It makes it too easy to keep doing what we’ve always been doing and convince yourself that this time it will work.  I’m just not comfortable saying its because “management” doesn’t’ care if things get better.
 
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
 
From: Eric Gunnerson ***@microsoft.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 9:37 AM
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] Modern Waterfall
 
 
SAFe is very appealing to management because it fits into their view of how the world should work (hierarchical, command and control) and it allows them to claim that they are now “agile” (I mean, it says *AGILE* right there in the name) without having to change what they do.
 
That’s a win-win.
 
A lot of things that used to confuse me became much clearer when I realized that managers – and I’m painting with an overly broad brush here – are primarily motivated by the success of their management careers, not by the success of the company. I used to think that management was out of touch and did not understand the issues with the current ways of doing things. Finally – I’m a slow learner – I realized that the reason things were the way they were is that for management, the issues that I was seeing weren’t bugs, they were features.
 
 
 
From: ***@yahoogroups.com [mailto:***@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2017 8:16 PM
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] Modern Waterfall
 
 

Post by Michael Wollin ***@mercurysw.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
Yeah well... when I first heard the term, I actually said, "like SAFe?" Nobody laughed. I thought I was funny, but you gotta know your audience.

 
 
well done! for saying it. Everyone wants to be SAFely agile ; and apparently so many companies are. The number of people who think SAFe is an improvement on 'agile' is mind-numbing. Nobody laughed -->were there a lot of 'senior' executives in the room?
I think we are in an over-hyped industry, with most terms having long lost their meanings, so "modern waterfall" is another desperate new term. ( Can there be something called 'over-hyped'? what is the meaning of hyperbole, again?)
 
 

Post by Michael Wollin ***@mercurysw.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
But the term is just a little unsettling, and now I have David Bowie stuck in my head. 

 
Sorry, but I didn't quite catch the reference. I'd no idea poor Bowie bothered about s/w dev.
 
cheers
Srinivas
Chillara Srinivas is a Scrum Coach, Scrum Trainer, XP, TDD, Test Driven Development, Scrum Training, consultant and trainer, Scrum implementation, Project Management Proficiency, PMP, Pune, India
www.ceezone,net


 
Chillara Srinivas is a Scrum Coach, Scrum Trainer, XP, TDD, Test Driven Dev...
Chillara Srinivas Srinidhi is a Scrum Coach, Scrum Trainer for Scrum, XP, TDD (Test Driven Development), consult...  
 
 
 
 

[Jim Schiel [e-mail] [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]]

Maybe I’m unrealistic
but this will eventually change. It will take time. It takes longer when things like SAFe create nice places to entrench. I was a manager for 17 years and, as I tell my students, I made pretty much all of mistakes I now lobby hard to get people to stop doing. But I do have to agree Eric, it can be employment ending. I left my job of 23 years only 4 years after driving (or trying to drive) Agile into the organization.

Jim Schiel

Post by Eric Gunnerson ***@microsoft.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
This happens to be one of my hot buttons recently. I’ll see if I can make my position clearer.
My day-to-day job would change.
I would need to justify my different way of working with my manager.
I would need to learn to use something different than “command and control”
I sympathize with and commend those who have tried/are trying to do these sorts of things, because in most organizations a very frustrating exercise, and it can be a risky from a career perspective.
My experience is that there are usually obvious things that the team can do that will get them something like a 2x improvement in productivity. There are obvious things that the team knows are slowing them down. But they don’t get done. In the old days, we used to say that nobody ever got fired for buying IBM. In most organizations, nobody ever got fired for using the same development/management approach that has been used for the past decade.
As for motivation of dev teams, I once had a dev team working on a part of an unexciting internal product that the other teams in the company were forced to use and actively disliked (and for good reason). And despite the uncoolness and negative feedback, we ended up with a team that was very tight and very productive. Part of that was having a bit of air cover from my manager, but at least some of it was my willingness to view my job as one of facilitating team progress rather than directing it.
I think the problem wrt motivation is a lack of understanding of what really motivates people; I think Daniel Pink has it right http://youtu.be/u6XAPnuFjJc though I like to add “community” to his list. That, and the common “what do I do as a manager of an agile team?” question.
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 8:54 AM
Subject: RE: [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] Modern Waterfall [1 Attachment]
[Attachment(s) <x-msg://8/#TopText> from Steve Ropa included below]
I’m always a little saddened when I see someone question the motivations of a separate group. I’ve been a manager, and I’ve worked with many managers. I would say that far more of them were ultimately interested in the success of the company than their own careers. I would also say that in the management discussion groups I’ve seen, they all seem to feel that devs aren’t motivated by the success of the company, but by their desire to do cool stuff.
If the original intent for Agile was, among other things, to heal the rift between business and development, I’d say we failed. Mostly because both “sides” are waiting for the other to change.
I’m not a fan of SAFe, and for the reason you mention. It makes it too easy to keep doing what we’ve always been doing and convince yourself that this time it will work. I’m just not comfortable saying its because “management” doesn’t’ care if things get better.
Sent from Mail <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgo.microsoft.com%2Ffwlink%2F%3FLinkId%3D550986&data=02%7C01%7CEric.Gunnerson%40microsoft.com%7C59886ee15b984c76709e08d4f097f511%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636397982830712288&sdata=OADUMCG%2FvyGHJzqQQ1s1UvFXXiJcGNirgWGimfqeNOY%3D&reserved=0> for Windows 10
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 9:37 AM
Subject: RE: [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] Modern Waterfall
SAFe is very appealing to management because it fits into their view of how the world should work (hierarchical, command and control) and it allows them to claim that they are now “agile” (I mean, it says *AGILE* right there in the name) without having to change what they do.
That’s a win-win.
A lot of things that used to confuse me became much clearer when I realized that managers – and I’m painting with an overly broad brush here – are primarily motivated by the success of their management careers, not by the success of the company. I used to think that management was out of touch and did not understand the issues with the current ways of doing things. Finally – I’m a slow learner – I realized that the reason things were the way they were is that for management, the issues that I was seeing weren’t bugs, they were features.
  <>
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2017 8:16 PM
Subject: Re: [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] Modern Waterfall

Post by Michael Wollin ***@mercurysw.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
Yeah well... when I first heard the term, I actually said, "like SAFe?" Nobody laughed. I thought I was funny, but you gotta know your audience.

well done! for saying it. Everyone wants to be SAFely agile ; and apparently so many companies are. The number of people who think SAFe is an improvement on 'agile' is mind-numbing. Nobody laughed -->were there a lot of 'senior' executives in the room?
I think we are in an over-hyped industry, with most terms having long lost their meanings, so "modern waterfall" is another desperate new term. ( Can there be something called 'over-hyped'? what is the meaning of hyperbole, again?)

Post by Michael Wollin ***@mercurysw.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
But the term is just a little unsettling, and now I have David Bowie stuck in my head.

Sorry, but I didn't quite catch the reference. I'd no idea poor Bowie bothered about s/w dev.
cheers
Srinivas
Chillara Srinivas is a Scrum Coach, Scrum Trainer, XP, TDD, Test Driven Development, Scrum Training, consultant and trainer, Scrum implementation, Project Management Proficiency, PMP, Pune, India <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scrumcoach.co.in%2F&data=02%7C01%7CEric.Gunnerson%40microsoft.com%7Cff21ab24a7604ca5c73708d4f01e9796%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636397461567849888&sdata=QViLF3nv%2Fr%2FVniUuZ8%2BLbdZeGRkWjnVH2%2F9yMhoBReI%3D&reserved=0>
www.ceezone,net <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scrumcoach.co.in%2F&data=02%7C01%7CEric.Gunnerson%40microsoft.com%7Cff21ab24a7604ca5c73708d4f01e9796%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636397461567849888&sdata=QViLF3nv%2Fr%2FVniUuZ8%2BLbdZeGRkWjnVH2%2F9yMhoBReI%3D&reserved=0>
<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scrumcoach.co.in%2F&data=02%7C01%7CEric.Gunnerson%40microsoft.com%7Cff21ab24a7604ca5c73708d4f01e9796%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636397461567849888&sdata=QViLF3nv%2Fr%2FVniUuZ8%2BLbdZeGRkWjnVH2%2F9yMhoBReI%3D&reserved=0>
Chillara Srinivas is a Scrum Coach, Scrum Trainer, XP, TDD, Test Driven Dev...
Chillara Srinivas Srinidhi is a Scrum Coach, Scrum Trainer for Scrum, XP, TDD (Test Driven Development), consult...

[Steve Ropa [e-mail] [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]]

I always thought it might be fun to have a contest as to how many times we’ve been fired for “pushing agile”.

I think you are right. I actually think the change is all around us already. I see it in many fields, and many management discussions. We still have a long way to go, but it is changing and for that I think we should be proud. Yes, SAFe is a “counter-attack” in a way, but these things happen. As long as we can continue to help people see why it isn’t awesome, over time it will be just another one off.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Jim Schiel ***@comcast.net [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 6:03 PM
To: ***@yahoogroups_com
Subject: Re: [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] Modern Waterfall

 
Maybe I’m unrealistic
but this will eventually change. It will take time. It takes longer when things like SAFe create nice places to entrench. I was a manager for 17 years and, as I tell my students, I made pretty much all of mistakes I now lobby hard to get people to stop doing. But I do have to agree Eric, it can be employment ending. I left my job of 23 years only 4 years after driving (or trying to drive) Agile into the organization.

Jim Schiel

On Aug 31, 2017, at 3:51 PM, Eric Gunnerson ***@microsoft.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] <***@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

This happens to be one of my hot buttons recently. I’ll see if I can make my position clearer.
 
I have also been a manager and worked with many managers. With the exception of existential crisis – cases where the company/division/job might go away if the status quo persists – I’ve known very few who were willing to do things differently to get more accomplished. And by “different”, I mean things like:
 
• My day-to-day job would change.
• I would need to justify my different way of working with my manager.
• I would need to learn to use something different than “command and control”
 
I sympathize with and commend those who have tried/are trying to do these sorts of things, because in most organizations a very frustrating exercise, and it can be a risky from a career perspective.
 
My experience is that there are usually obvious things that the team can do that will get them something like a 2x improvement in productivity. There are obvious things that the team knows are slowing them down. But they don’t get done.  In the old days, we used to say that nobody ever got fired for buying IBM. In most organizations, nobody ever got fired for using the same development/management approach that has been used for the past decade.  
 
As for motivation of dev teams, I once had a dev team working on a part of an unexciting internal product that the other teams in the company were forced to use and actively disliked (and for good reason). And despite the uncoolness and negative feedback, we ended up with a team that was very tight and very productive. Part of that was having a bit of air cover from my manager, but at least some of it was my willingness to view my job as one of facilitating team progress rather than directing it.
 
I think the problem wrt motivation is a lack of understanding of what really motivates people; I think Daniel Pink has it right, though I like to add “community” to his list. That, and the common “what do I do as a manager of an agile team?” question.
 
From: ***@yahoogroups.com [mailto:***@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 8:54 AM
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] Modern Waterfall [1 Attachment]
 
 
[Attachment(s) from Steve Ropa included below]
I’m always a little saddened when I see someone question the motivations of a separate group.  I’ve been a manager, and I’ve worked with many managers.  I would say that far more of them were ultimately interested in the success of the company than their own careers.  I would also say that in the management discussion groups I’ve seen, they all seem to feel that devs aren’t motivated by the success of the company, but by their desire to do cool stuff. 
 
If the original intent for Agile was, among other things, to heal the rift between business and development, I’d say we failed.  Mostly because both “sides” are waiting for the other to change.
 
I’m not a fan of SAFe, and for the reason you mention.  It makes it too easy to keep doing what we’ve always been doing and convince yourself that this time it will work.  I’m just not comfortable saying its because “management” doesn’t’ care if things get better.
 
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
 
From: Eric Gunnerson ***@microsoft.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 9:37 AM
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] Modern Waterfall
 
 
SAFe is very appealing to management because it fits into their view of how the world should work (hierarchical, command and control) and it allows them to claim that they are now “agile” (I mean, it says *AGILE* right there in the name) without having to change what they do.
 
That’s a win-win.
 
A lot of things that used to confuse me became much clearer when I realized that managers – and I’m painting with an overly broad brush here – are primarily motivated by the success of their management careers, not by the success of the company. I used to think that management was out of touch and did not understand the issues with the current ways of doing things. Finally – I’m a slow learner – I realized that the reason things were the way they were is that for management, the issues that I was seeing weren’t bugs, they were features.
 
 
 
From: ***@yahoogroups.com [mailto:***@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2017 8:16 PM
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] Modern Waterfall
 
 

Post by Michael Wollin ***@mercurysw.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
Yeah well... when I first heard the term, I actually said, "like SAFe?" Nobody laughed. I thought I was funny, but you gotta know your audience.

 
 
well done! for saying it. Everyone wants to be SAFely agile ; and apparently so many companies are. The number of people who think SAFe is an improvement on 'agile' is mind-numbing. Nobody laughed -->were there a lot of 'senior' executives in the room?
I think we are in an over-hyped industry, with most terms having long lost their meanings, so "modern waterfall" is another desperate new term. ( Can there be something called 'over-hyped'? what is the meaning of hyperbole, again?)
 
 

Post by Michael Wollin ***@mercurysw.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
But the term is just a little unsettling, and now I have David Bowie stuck in my head. 

 
Sorry, but I didn't quite catch the reference. I'd no idea poor Bowie bothered about s/w dev.
 
cheers
Srinivas
Chillara Srinivas is a Scrum Coach, Scrum Trainer, XP, TDD, Test Driven Development, Scrum Training, consultant and trainer, Scrum implementation, Project Management Proficiency, PMP, Pune, India
www.ceezone,net


 
Chillara Srinivas is a Scrum Coach, Scrum Trainer, XP, TDD, Test Driven Dev...
Chillara Srinivas Srinidhi is a Scrum Coach, Scrum Trainer for Scrum, XP, TDD (Test Driven Development), consult...  
 
 
 

[srinivas chillara [e-mail] [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]]

 

I think the problem wrt motivation is a lack of understanding of what really motivates people; I thinkDaniel Pink has it right, though I like to add “community” to his list. That, and the common “what do I do as a manager of an agile team?” question.  Pete Deemer has an excellent practical booklet on "managers in Scrum": http://www.goodagile.com/resources/the_manager_and_scrum_1.1.pdf

cheersSrinivas
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GoodAgile Certified Scrum Training for India and Asia
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[Tim Wright [e-mail] [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]]

I hear it was presented at `Waterfall 2006`.

https://www.waterfall2006.com/

Tim

--
Tim
021 251 5593
http://www.linkedin.com/in/drtimwright

Post by Michael James ***@gmail.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
Somehow "modern waterfall" disturbs me less than traditional methods
masquerading as Agile (e.g. SAFe). At least it's clearly labeled as
waterfall.
--mj

Post by Michael Wollin ***@mercurysw.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
Now I've heard everything. My client has a thing called "modern
waterfall." I haven't gotten access privileges to the spec yet, but I
shudder. Something about using Jira for requirements. Oy!
Michael

['Richard Hundhausen' [e-mail] [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]]

I love that site. We should stand up a new for ScaledWaterfall2017 or something. :-)



From: ***@yahoogroups.com [mailto:***@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 12:52 AM
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] Modern Waterfall







I hear it was presented at `Waterfall 2006`.



https://www.waterfall2006.com/



Tim




--

Tim

021 251 5593

http://www.linkedin.com/in/drtimwright



On 29 August 2017 at 16:46, Michael James ***@gmail.com <mailto:***@gmail.com> [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] <***@yahoogroups.com <mailto:***@yahoogroups.com> > wrote:



Somehow "modern waterfall" disturbs me less than traditional methods masquerading as Agile (e.g. SAFe). At least it's clearly labeled as waterfall.



--mj







On Sun, Aug 20, 2017 at 1:21 PM, Michael Wollin ***@mercurysw.com <mailto:***@mercurysw.com> [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] <***@yahoogroups.com <mailto:***@yahoogroups.com> > wrote:



Now I've heard everything. My client has a thing called "modern waterfall." I haven't gotten access privileges to the spec yet, but I shudder. Something about using Jira for requirements. Oy!

Michael

[Michael Wollin [e-mail] [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]]

That's so awesome! I'm laughing so hard I'm crying.

Post by 'Richard Hundhausen' ***@accentient.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
I love that site. We should stand up a new for ScaledWaterfall2017 or something. :-)
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 12:52 AM
Subject: Re: [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] Modern Waterfall
I hear it was presented at `Waterfall 2006`.
https://www.waterfall2006.com/
Tim
--
Tim
021 251 5593
http://www.linkedin.com/in/drtimwright
Somehow "modern waterfall" disturbs me less than traditional methods masquerading as Agile (e.g. SAFe). At least it's clearly labeled as waterfall.
--mj
Now I've heard everything. My client has a thing called "modern waterfall." I haven't gotten access privileges to the spec yet, but I shudder. Something about using Jira for requirements. Oy!
Michael

['Rohan D'Sa' [e-mail] [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]]

The ScaledHighIntensityTraditional (SH*T) model sounds appropriate.

Regards,
Rohan


On 31 Aug 2017 19:30, "'Richard Hundhausen' ***@accentient.com mailto:***@accentient.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]" <***@yahoogroups.com mailto:***@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I love that site. We should stand up a new for ScaledWaterfall2017 or something. :-)

From: ***@yahoogroups. com mailto:***@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCRUMDEVELOPMENT@ yahoogroups.com mailto:***@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 12:52 AM
To: ***@yahoogroups. com mailto:***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] Modern Waterfall





I hear it was presented at `Waterfall 2006`.



https://www.waterfall2006.com/ https://www.waterfall2006.com/



Tim




--

Tim
021 251 5593

http://www.linkedin.com/in/ drtimwright http://www.linkedin.com/in/drtimwright






On 29 August 2017 at 16:46, Michael James ***@gmail.com mailto:***@gmail.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] <***@yahoogroups. com mailto:***@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Somehow "modern waterfall" disturbs me less than traditional methods masquerading as Agile (e.g. SAFe). At least it's clearly labeled as waterfall.


--mj







On Sun, Aug 20, 2017 at 1:21 PM, Michael Wollin ***@mercurysw.com mailto:***@mercurysw.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] <***@yahoogroups. com mailto:***@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Now I've heard everything. My client has a thing called "modern waterfall." I haven't gotten access privileges to the spec yet, but I shudder. Something about using Jira for requirements. Oy!

Michael

[Tom Mellor [e-mail] [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]]

Agile doesn't fail.  Agile is something you are (or you aren't.)  If the business and technology don't collaborate, then they aren't agile. Agility is the ability to turn on a dime for a dime in the words of Craig Larman.  Make effective change fast in an efficient manner.  Like Tom DeMarco wrote in "Slack" - most companies focus on efficiency and completely ignore effectiveness.  
What you saw as a manager (and probably contributed to as a manager) is the local optimization that is the enemy of agility.  It happens in all areas of companies.  Anytime I am saddled with making sure my unit, group, etc. performs top notch, I'll do whatever is necessary to achieve that, even at the expense of what we really want to do - optimizing the entire system.  Couple in performance management that rewards us for being heroes and running over each other (and other political nonsense), you have lots of trouble. 
The original intention of agility was to make work a better place - better for people, better for the organization, and better for society. More that a few firms have achieved that.  Watch the Spotify videos - I show both of them in my workshops. 
SAFe won't make you agile and neither will Scrum, or XP, or Feature Driven Development, or any homegrown framework.  We have found great ways to organize ourselves and manage our work.  Agility goes way beyond that - it includes complexity thinking, lean thinking, and systems thinking.  It's to business what cybermetrics is to baseball.  
And, we should incentivize people to experiment, which means that you incentivize them to fail because experiments fail...and learning occurs, hopefully.  Lots of orgs have found agility to some degree - they have to find it to compete and even to survive.  The secret is not to narrow the perspective to something as mundane as being something you do.  Agility is never something you do.  It is something you are.
 
I’m always a little saddened when I see someone question the motivations of a separate group. I’ve been a manager, and I’ve worked with many managers. I would say that far more of them were ultimately interested in the success of the company than their own careers. I would also say that in the management discussion groups I’ve seen, they all seem to feel that devs aren’t motivated by the success of the company, but by their desire to do cool stuff. 

If the original intent for Agile was, among other things, to heal the rift between business and development, I’d say we failed. Mostly because both “sides” are waiting for the other to change.

I’m not a fan of SAFe, and for the reason you mention. It makes it too easy to keep doing what we’ve always been doing and convince yourself that this time it will work. I’m just not comfortable saying its because “management” doesn’t’ care if things get better.

[Steve Ropa [e-mail] [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]]

When I said that “we failed” I didn’t mean agile failed, its just a concept. I meant that *we* who had been pushing this crazy concept for the past (what, 17 years now?) have failed in the area of healing the rift.

What I saw as a manager was a lot of motivated people trying to help teams succeed. Whether that was local optimization or systems thinking would depend on each particular instance. I’ve observed both. I would also suggest that using general terms might miss some nuance. There are many times that a local optimization can contribute to a system wide improvement.

I find it interesting that you are suggesting you know what my actions or behaviors were as a manager, since as far as I know we’ve never met. My entire point, which I feel that assumption illustrates, is that we are quick to ascribe behaviors and motivations to others rather than looking in the mirror.

As a manager, I always strove to help my team be better. In most cases that was with the help of Agile, usually XP. In other cases it might have been something else. As a developer, I always strove to make great software. No matter what role I have ever held, I *always* worked to keep the larger picture in mind.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Tom Mellor ***@yahoo.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 9:51 PM
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] Re: Modern Waterfall

 
Agile doesn't fail.  Agile is something you are (or you aren't.)  If the business and technology don't collaborate, then they aren't agile. Agility is the ability to turn on a dime for a dime in the words of Craig Larman.  Make effective change fast in an efficient manner.  Like Tom DeMarco wrote in "Slack" - most companies focus on efficiency and completely ignore effectiveness.  

What you saw as a manager (and probably contributed to as a manager) is the local optimization that is the enemy of agility.  It happens in all areas of companies.  Anytime I am saddled with making sure my unit, group, etc. performs top notch, I'll do whatever is necessary to achieve that, even at the expense of what we really want to do - optimizing the entire system.  Couple in performance management that rewards us for being heroes and running over each other (and other political nonsense), you have lots of trouble. 

The original intention of agility was to make work a better place - better for people, better for the organization, and better for society. More that a few firms have achieved that.  Watch the Spotify videos - I show both of them in my workshops. 

SAFe won't make you agile and neither will Scrum, or XP, or Feature Driven Development, or any homegrown framework.  We have found great ways to organize ourselves and manage our work.  Agility goes way beyond that - it includes complexity thinking, lean thinking, and systems thinking.  It's to business what cybermetrics is to baseball.  

And, we should incentivize people to experiment, which means that you incentivize them to fail because experiments fail...and learning occurs, hopefully.  Lots of orgs have found agility to some degree - they have to find it to compete and even to survive.  The secret is not to narrow the perspective to something as mundane as being something you do.  Agility is never something you do.  It is something you are.

 

I’m always a little saddened when I see someone question the motivations of a separate group. I’ve been a manager, and I’ve worked with many managers. I would say that far more of them were ultimately interested in the success of the company than their own careers. I would also say that in the management discussion groups I’ve seen, they all seem to feel that devs aren’t motivated by the success of the company, but by their desire to do cool stuff. 

If the original intent for Agile was, among other things, to heal the rift between business and development, I’d say we failed. Mostly because both “sides” are waiting for the other to change.

I’m not a fan of SAFe, and for the reason you mention. It makes it too easy to keep doing what we’ve always been doing and convince yourself that this time it will work. I’m just not comfortable saying its because “management” doesn’t’ care if things get better.

[srinivas chillara [e-mail] [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]]

The larger picture is very simple.... my dear fellow, you have to know that all this will add up to 42.

cheers
Srinivas


From: "Steve Ropa ***@gmail.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, 2 September 2017 12:54 AM
Subject: RE: [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] Re: Modern Waterfall [1 Attachment]

  [Attachment(s) from Steve Ropa included below] When I said that “we failed” I didn’t mean agile failed, its just a concept.  I meant that *we* who had been pushing this crazy concept for the past (what, 17 years now?) have failed in the area of healing the rift.  What I saw as a manager was a lot of motivated people trying to help teams succeed.  Whether that was local optimization or systems thinking would depend on each particular instance.  I’ve observed both.  I would also suggest that using general terms might miss some nuance.  There are many times that a local optimization can contribute to a system wide improvement.   I find it interesting that you are suggesting you know what my actions or behaviors were as a manager, since as far as I know we’ve never met.  My entire point, which I feel that assumption illustrates, is that we are quick to ascribe behaviors and motivations to others rather than looking in the mirror.   As a manager, I always strove to help my team be better.  In most cases that was with the help of Agile, usually XP.  In other cases it might have been something else.  As a developer, I always strove to make great software.  No matter what role I have ever held, I *always* worked to keep the larger picture in mind.  Sent from Mail for Windows 10  From: Tom Mellor ***@yahoo.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 9:51 PM
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] Re: Modern Waterfall    Agile doesn't fail.  Agile is something you are (or you aren't.)  If the business and technology don't collaborate, then they aren't agile. Agility is the ability to turn on a dime for a dime in the words of Craig Larman.  Make effective change fast in an efficient manner.  Like Tom DeMarco wrote in "Slack" - most companies focus on efficiency and completely ignore effectiveness.    What you saw as a manager (and probably contributed to as a manager) is the local optimization that is the enemy of agility.  It happens in all areas of companies.  Anytime I am saddled with making sure my unit, group, etc. performs top notch, I'll do whatever is necessary to achieve that, even at the expense of what we really want to do - optimizing the entire system.  Couple in performance management that rewards us for being heroes and running over each other (and other political nonsense), you have lots of trouble.   The original intention of agility was to make work a better place - better for people, better for the organization, and better for society. More that a few firms have achieved that.  Watch the Spotify videos - I show both of them in my workshops.   SAFe won't make you agile and neither will Scrum, or XP, or Feature Driven Development, or any homegrown framework.  We have found great ways to organize ourselves and manage our work.  Agility goes way beyond that - it includes complexity thinking, lean thinking, and systems thinking.  It's to business what cybermetrics is to baseball.    And, we should incentivize people to experiment, which means that you incentivize them to fail because experiments fail...and learning occurs, hopefully.  Lots of orgs have found agility to some degree - they have to find it to compete and even to survive.  The secret is not to narrow the perspective to something as mundane as being something you do.  Agility is never something you do.  It is something you are.     I’m always a little saddened when I see someone question the motivations of a separate group. I’ve been a manager, and I’ve worked with many managers. I would say that far more of them were ultimately interested in the success of the company than their own careers. I would also say that in the management discussion groups I’ve seen, they all seem to feel that devs aren’t motivated by the success of the company, but by their desire to do cool stuff. 

If the original intent for Agile was, among other things, to heal the rift between business and development, I’d say we failed. Mostly because both “sides” are waiting for the other to change.

I’m not a fan of SAFe, and for the reason you mention. It makes it too easy to keep doing what we’ve always been doing and convince yourself that this time it will work. 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