Discussion:
[SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] Honestly Curious
Michael Wollin yahoo@mercurysw.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
2018-02-24 17:17:31 UTC
Permalink
I’ve been reading Kent Beck and Ken Schwaber, and I come by this question honestly. Do you have examples of Scrum Masters who were amazingly great at that craft who have never themselves been and lived in the world of a professional programmer? Will you share?

Servant leadership requires deep empathy. How does one who hasn’t done it know what it’s like to appreciate the sweet elegance of a well crafted piece of code and live as a craftsman, while working under schedule pressure and perhaps in unsupportive physical surroundings?

Is this important at all? Might not be. Certainly one can do a lot if one takes to heart the people they serve. And that quality is barely correlated with career path.
marcodorantes@hotmail.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
2018-02-24 21:32:09 UTC
Permalink
Excellent question, Michael. I used to think —decades into my past— that “the only way” —careful! Bigotry alarms at full capacity here— somebody could ever know and ever teach about something is by the sole means of direct experience. Period. Simple. End of discussion.

Nowadays, —since about 28 years ago—, I reflect that the subject matter of knowing and the subject matter of being able to teach or help others turned out to be not that simple. And the discussion is wide open, and the debate keeps very active among authorities on those subject matters.

There are cases where somebody can, in fact, learn a lot from the experiences reported by others and by pure sheet thought based on sound theoretical schemes. So, now I think that a fully functional Scrum Master —or anybody, for that matter— can, in fact, help others without the sole means of direct experience.


Does it make sense?
marcodorantes@hotmail.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
2018-02-24 21:54:54 UTC
Permalink
Excellent question, Michael. I used to think —decades into my past— that “the only way” —careful! Bigotry alarms at full capacity here— somebody could ever know and ever teach about something is by the sole means of direct experience. Period. Simple. End of discussion.

Nowadays, —since about 28 years ago—, I reflect that the subject matter of knowing and the subject matter of being able to teach or help others turned out to be not that simple. And the discussion is wide open, and the debate keeps very active among authorities on those subject matters.

There are cases where somebody can, in fact, learn a lot from the experiences reported by others and by pure sheer thought based on sound theoretical schemes. So, now I think that a fully functional Scrum Master —or anybody, for that matter— can, in fact, help others effectively without the sole means of direct experience.


Does it make sense?
Alan Dayley alandd@dayleyagile.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
2018-02-25 04:18:30 UTC
Permalink
Think about writing a job description for a Scrum Master. You decide that
candidates must have a Bachelor's Degree in order to qualify. What courses
of study, what degrees would be most beneficial to the work of a Scrum
Master? I don't think computer science or mathematics or various
engineering degrees are the answer.

I have known many excellent Scrum Masters who have come from project
management backgrounds. A few have come from marketing or business
backgrounds. Many have come from technical fields, too.

Alan
Post by ***@hotmail.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
Excellent question, Michael. I used to think —decades into my past— that
“the only way” —careful! Bigotry alarms at full capacity here— somebody
could ever know and ever teach about something is by the sole means of
direct experience. Period. Simple. End of discussion.
Nowadays, —since about 28 years ago—, I reflect that the subject matter of
knowing and the subject matter of being able to teach or help others turned
out to be not that simple. And the discussion is wide open, and the debate
keeps very active among authorities on those subject matters.
There are cases where somebody can, in fact, learn a lot from the
experiences reported by others and by pure sheer thought based on sound
theoretical schemes. So, now I think that a fully functional Scrum Master
—or anybody, for that matter— can, in fact, help others effectively without
the sole means of direct experience.
Does it make sense?
Michael Wollin yahoo@mercurysw.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
2018-02-25 04:33:07 UTC
Permalink
I don’t believe I said any of that, Alan. I’m inviting you to share about one of these people and how they mastered the craft.
Think about writing a job description for a Scrum Master. You decide that candidates must have a Bachelor's Degree in order to qualify. What courses of study, what degrees would be most beneficial to the work of a Scrum Master? I don't think computer science or mathematics or various engineering degrees are the answer.
I have known many excellent Scrum Masters who have come from project management backgrounds. A few have come from marketing or business backgrounds. Many have come from technical fields, too.
Alan
Excellent question, Michael. I used to think —decades into my past— that “the only way” —careful! Bigotry alarms at full capacity here— somebody could ever know and ever teach about something is by the sole means of direct experience. Period. Simple.. End of discussion.
Nowadays, —since about 28 years ago—, I reflect that the subject matter of knowing and the subject matter of being able to teach or help others turned out to be not that simple. And the discussion is wide open, and the debate keeps very active among authorities on those subject matters.
There are cases where somebody can, in fact, learn a lot from the experiences reported by others and by pure sheer thought based on sound theoretical schemes. So, now I think that a fully functional Scrum Master —or anybody, for that matter— can, in fact, help others effectively without the sole means of direct experience.
Does it make sense?
Alan Dayley alandd@dayleyagile.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
2018-02-25 05:00:15 UTC
Permalink
I wasn't clear with my little bit about a required degree. I am sorry. In
stating what degree would be good for a Scrum Master I was trying to
indicate that a technical degree was not a better fit for the work of a
Scrum Master. Therefore, technical skills are also not required for the
work of a Scrum Master.

To tell a true tale:

Years ago I met an amazing project manager on a team of volunteers for a
big community event. This person was the project manager for the team. They
made charts, spreadsheets and detailed time lines. They pushed people for
results, often pushing too hard and creating frustration for themselves and
others.

I got to know them better, learning that they were trained in marketing but
had been a project manager for IT teams for some years. They had several
certifications from PMI. As they learned I was a Scrum Master and then
Agile Coach, they asked me questions. How did planning work if you didn't
plan everything up front? How do you get people to do things if the
self-organize? And so on.

Over the years they began to apply some Agile and Scrum ideas to their work
and the teams at their work. They began to see results. I pointed them to
books, like Coaching Agile Teams and Agile Estimating and Planning. They
devoured these books, often messaging me about difficulties and successes.
One day they report that one team agreed to go "full Agile" as an
experiment. In less than a year that team, with this person as Scrum
Master, became the most productive and valuable in their organization. This
led to the person teaching classes, getting Agile training and moving the
entire IT department toward Agile ways of working.

This very person is now an Enterprise Agile Coach at a large financial
services company. They are certified in teaching several Agile frameworks
and as a coach in the same. They are happier at work than they ever had
been. This person had no professional programming experience. They simply
were good at the people side of things. And they had the discipline to
learn and grow in a new direction.

"How does one who hasn’t done it know what it’s like to appreciate the
sweet elegance of a well crafted piece of code and live as a craftsman,
while working under schedule pressure and perhaps in unsupportive physical
surroundings?"

People who don't code can create well crafted other things and live as a
craftsman in their own sphere. It is not only technical people who feel
schedule pressure and unsupportive surroundings. As long as someone is able
to see the similarities in experiences of different work, I think they can
be helpful to those with skills other than their own.

"Certainly one can do a lot if one takes to heart the people they serve.
And that quality is barely correlated with career path."

Yes, I agree wholeheartedly!
Post by Michael Wollin ***@mercurysw.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
I don’t believe I said any of that, Alan. I’m inviting you to share about
one of these people and how they mastered the craft.
Think about writing a job description for a Scrum Master. You decide that
candidates must have a Bachelor's Degree in order to qualify. What courses
of study, what degrees would be most beneficial to the work of a Scrum
Master? I don't think computer science or mathematics or various
engineering degrees are the answer.
I have known many excellent Scrum Masters who have come from project
management backgrounds. A few have come from marketing or business
backgrounds. Many have come from technical fields, too.
Alan
Post by ***@hotmail.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
Excellent question, Michael. I used to think —decades into my past— that
“the only way” —careful! Bigotry alarms at full capacity here— somebody
could ever know and ever teach about something is by the sole means of
direct experience. Period. Simple. End of discussion.
Nowadays, —since about 28 years ago—, I reflect that the subject matter
of knowing and the subject matter of being able to teach or help others
turned out to be not that simple. And the discussion is wide open, and the
debate keeps very active among authorities on those subject matters.
There are cases where somebody can, in fact, learn a lot from the
experiences reported by others and by pure sheer thought based on sound
theoretical schemes. So, now I think that a fully functional Scrum Master
—or anybody, for that matter— can, in fact, help others effectively without
the sole means of direct experience.
Does it make sense?
Michael Wollin yahoo@mercurysw.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
2018-02-25 05:14:36 UTC
Permalink
Beautiful said, Alan.
I wasn't clear with my little bit about a required degree. I am sorry. In stating what degree would be good for a Scrum Master I was trying to indicate that a technical degree was not a better fit for the work of a Scrum Master. Therefore, technical skills are also not required for the work of a Scrum Master.
Years ago I met an amazing project manager on a team of volunteers for a big community event. This person was the project manager for the team. They made charts, spreadsheets and detailed time lines. They pushed people for results, often pushing too hard and creating frustration for themselves and others.
I got to know them better, learning that they were trained in marketing but had been a project manager for IT teams for some years. They had several certifications from PMI. As they learned I was a Scrum Master and then Agile Coach, they asked me questions. How did planning work if you didn't plan everything up front? How do you get people to do things if the self-organize? And so on.
Over the years they began to apply some Agile and Scrum ideas to their work and the teams at their work. They began to see results. I pointed them to books, like Coaching Agile Teams and Agile Estimating and Planning. They devoured these books, often messaging me about difficulties and successes. One day they report that one team agreed to go "full Agile" as an experiment. In less than a year that team, with this person as Scrum Master, became the most productive and valuable in their organization. This led to the person teaching classes, getting Agile training and moving the entire IT department toward Agile ways of working.
This very person is now an Enterprise Agile Coach at a large financial services company. They are certified in teaching several Agile frameworks and as a coach in the same. They are happier at work than they ever had been. This person had no professional programming experience. They simply were good at the people side of things. And they had the discipline to learn and grow in a new direction.
"How does one who hasn’t done it know what it’s like to appreciate the sweet elegance of a well crafted piece of code and live as a craftsman, while working under schedule pressure and perhaps in unsupportive physical surroundings?"
People who don't code can create well crafted other things and live as a craftsman in their own sphere. It is not only technical people who feel schedule pressure and unsupportive surroundings. As long as someone is able to see the similarities in experiences of different work, I think they can be helpful to those with skills other than their own.
"Certainly one can do a lot if one takes to heart the people they serve. And that quality is barely correlated with career path."
Yes, I agree wholeheartedly!
Dan Greening dan@greening.org [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
2018-02-25 06:25:52 UTC
Permalink
All the research I’ve been doing lately, to motivate agility, has been in
chaos theory, positive psychology, statistics and economics. So...uh...I
think we’re going to have a hard time finding the “correct” academic
background. I do have a computer science background, but honestly I think
Scrum is for creative teams of all sorts.

Dan
Post by Alan Dayley ***@dayleyagile.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
Think about writing a job description for a Scrum Master. You decide that
candidates must have a Bachelor's Degree in order to qualify. What courses
of study, what degrees would be most beneficial to the work of a Scrum
Master? I don't think computer science or mathematics or various
engineering degrees are the answer.
I have known many excellent Scrum Masters who have come from project
management backgrounds. A few have come from marketing or business
backgrounds. Many have come from technical fields, too.
Alan
Post by ***@hotmail.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
Excellent question, Michael. I used to think —decades into my past— that
“the only way” —careful! Bigotry alarms at full capacity here— somebody
could ever know and ever teach about something is by the sole means of
direct experience. Period. Simple. End of discussion.
Nowadays, —since about 28 years ago—, I reflect that the subject matter
of knowing and the subject matter of being able to teach or help others
turned out to be not that simple. And the discussion is wide open, and the
debate keeps very active among authorities on those subject matters.
There are cases where somebody can, in fact, learn a lot from the
experiences reported by others and by pure sheer thought based on sound
theoretical schemes. So, now I think that a fully functional Scrum Master
—or anybody, for that matter— can, in fact, help others effectively without
the sole means of direct experience.
Does it make sense?
--
Dan R. Greening — http://dan.greening.org http://linkedin.com/in/greening
srinivas chillara ceezone@yahoo.co.in [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
2018-02-25 06:48:54 UTC
Permalink
You all remind me of Diogenes looking for an honest man. We are setting the bar very high.....The worry is that large number of ScrumMasters are SAFely third-rate.
Maybe women have a better shot at being evolved and effective SMs!(oh I'm from India, so not bothered to be PC in most things, not many holy cows aye?).
cheersSrinivas




From: "Dan Greening ***@greening.org [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, 25 February 2018 11:56 AM
Subject: Re: [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] Re: Honestly Curious

  All the research I’ve been doing lately, to motivate agility, has been in chaos theory, positive psychology, statistics and economics.. So...uh...I think we’re going to have a hard time finding the “correct” academic background. I do have a computer science background, but honestly I think Scrum is for creative teams of all sorts.
Dan
On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 8:18 PM Alan Dayley ***@dayleyagile.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] <***@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

  Think about writing a job description for a Scrum Master. You decide that candidates must have a Bachelor's Degree in order to qualify. What courses of study, what degrees would be most beneficial to the work of a Scrum Master? I don't think computer science or mathematics or various engineering degrees are the answer. 
I have known many excellent Scrum Masters who have come from project management backgrounds. A few have come from marketing or business backgrounds. Many have come from technical fields, too.
Alan

On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 2:54 PM, ***@hotmail.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] <***@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

  Excellent question, Michael. I used to think —decades into my past— that “the only way” —careful! Bigotry alarms at full capacity here— somebody could ever know and ever teach about something is by the sole means of direct experience. Period. Simple. End of discussion.
Nowadays, —since about 28 years ago—, I reflect that the subject matter of knowing and the subject matter of being able to teach or help others turned out to be not that simple. And the discussion is wide open, and the debate keeps very active among authorities on those subject matters.
There are cases where somebody can, in fact, learn a lot from the experiences reported by others and by pure sheer thought based on sound theoretical schemes. So, now I think that a fully functional Scrum Master —or anybody, for that matter— can, in fact, help others effectively without the sole means of direct experience.
Does it make sense?
--
Dan R. Greening — http://dan.greening.org  http://linkedin.com/in/greening #yiv8282183425 #yiv8282183425 -- #yiv8282183425ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#yiv8282183425 #yiv8282183425ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv8282183425 #yiv8282183425ygrp-mkp #yiv8282183425hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#yiv8282183425 #yiv8282183425ygrp-mkp #yiv8282183425ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#yiv8282183425 #yiv8282183425ygrp-mkp .yiv8282183425ad {padding:0 0;}#yiv8282183425 #yiv8282183425ygrp-mkp .yiv8282183425ad p {margin:0;}#yiv8282183425 #yiv8282183425ygrp-mkp .yiv8282183425ad a {color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}#yiv8282183425 #yiv8282183425ygrp-sponsor #yiv8282183425ygrp-lc {font-family:Arial;}#yiv8282183425 #yiv8282183425ygrp-sponsor #yiv8282183425ygrp-lc #yiv8282183425hd {margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}#yiv8282183425 #yiv8282183425ygrp-sponsor #yiv8282183425ygrp-lc 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t_mellor@yahoo.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
2018-02-25 13:13:41 UTC
Permalink
Reading the works of those 2 people are certainly worthy, as are works by Geoff Watts, Lyssa Adkins, Jean Tabaka, Mike Cohn, and others. I mentored with Schwaber fairly closely for several years. I can say from experience that while having a programming background is a strong asset for Scrum Masters, not having one is not a show stopper nor does it preclude one from being a very successful Scrum Master. There are many critical skills desired and needed outside of technical competence. I can say that understanding programming is critical and a great Scrum Master will learn the fundamentals of programming.

Servant leadership requires many attributes (see www.greenleaf.org http://www.greenleaf.org) and by definition it is leading through moral authority rather than positional authority. Empathy is a big part, as is understanding of the operation of the roles of people. I liken it to being a pitching coach in baseball; it's hard to coach pitchers if you have never pitched and it is even harder to gain the moral authority necessary of a pitching coach if the people you are coaching know you have never pitched.


Working under pressure and "unsupported physical surroundings" would be front and center in a great Scrum Master's radar and he would help with the first and get rid of the second. I know that from experience, too. I never worried about a "career path." I did worry about the people I served. Rewards will come to those who serve others well and who really care about them.


That's my simple wisdom from 15 years of Scrum Mastering experience. I hope it helps.
trudelle@gmail.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
2018-02-27 23:51:57 UTC
Permalink
Several years ago, I was fortunate enough to work with a young woman who fit Michael's description, while building embedded software products. She had degrees in biotech, and was in the middle of her MSCS, but previous jobs were in a mailroom and as POC for university applicants. She was interested in how we were working, so participated long enough to understand the basics of Agile/Scrum. Within weeks, she was starting her own Scrum teams in IT, with minimal guidance but outstanding results for all involved. She is now a Sr Mgr for Program Mgt at a major SaaS firm, and an Agile evangelist everywhere. I attribute her extraordinary results to one plain, simple fact: she loves people!
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