Discussion:
[SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] Quote about estimating cost/value
Charles Bradley - Professional Scrum Trainer and Coach chuck-lists2@emailchuck.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
2015-05-09 01:33:52 UTC
Permalink
I seem to remember quote similar to the following from a few years ago.  Anyone know who said it?  (Maybe Agile 2012?) (I already did several google searches myself -- to no avail)
(Speaking to the "business" I presume)
"If you're not going to estimate the value of features, then we're not going to estimate the cost of features"
Anyone know who said it or where I can find the quote?

-------
Charles Bradley
Professional Scrum Trainer
Scrum Coach-in-Chief
http://ScrumCrazy.com
tonyx1@gmail.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
2015-05-09 11:22:51 UTC
Permalink
Some quotes from twitter:


Daniel Hagman ‏@DanielHagman87 https://twitter.com/DanielHagman87 Jun 9 https://twitter.com/DanielHagman87/status/475863931706421248
Why don't we estimate value instead of effort? #noestimates https://twitter.com/hashtag/noestimates?src=hash
https://twitter.com/DanielHagman87/status/4758639317064212480 retweets1 favorite Reply
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☕ J. B. Rainsberger ‏@jbrains https://twitter.com/jbrains Jun 9 https://twitter.com/jbrains/status/476048508169232385
@DanielHagman87 https://twitter.com/DanielHagman87 We estimate value only at the highest levels of granularity. Estimating the value of a single feature is extremely hard.












Toni ‏@tonyxzt https://twitter.com/tonyxzt Mar 2 https://twitter.com/tonyxzt/status/572390499937607680
In software development, uncertainty about cost/time of getting a feature done is usually smaller than the uncertainty about its true value.
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Daniel Hamlin ‏@DanMHamlin https://twitter.com/DanMHamlin May 2 https://twitter.com/DanMHamlin/status/594616651296808960
Estimates emphasize cost rather than value. Figure out what is most valuable and do it. Thanks @RonJeffries https://twitter.com/RonJeffries for pitting it simply.


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7:37 PM - 2 May 2015 · Details https://twitter.com/DanMHamlin/status/594616651296808960


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Antonio Lucca




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---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <chuck-***@...> wrote :

I seem to remember quote similar to the following from a few years ago. Anyone know who said it? (Maybe Agile 2012?)
(I already did several google searches myself -- to no avail)


(Speaking to the "business" I presume)


"If you're not going to estimate the value of features, then we're not going to estimate the cost of features"


Anyone know who said it or where I can find the quote?



-------
Charles Bradley
Professional Scrum Trainer
Scrum Coach-in-Chief
http://ScrumCrazy.com http://www.scrumcrazy.com/
Dan Greening dan@greening.org [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
2015-05-09 12:49:25 UTC
Permalink
Since Scrum and XP are primarily used for production optimization—I like to
say "Scrum is rhythmic experimentation to improve production"—why is it
surprising that the metrics we talk about in Scrum are cost metrics:
velocity, rework (aka bug count), communication (aka happiness)?

Scrum has abstracted away the very difficult task of feature valuation to
the Product Owner, so much so that most CSPO training focuses on "coping
with Scrum" and the mechanics of how to breakdown or refactor big stories
(such as story mapping).

Into this breach flew Lean Startup, thank goodness. And now we finally have
the value-based complex adaptive system converse of cost-based Scrum and
XP. "Occasional experimentation to improve value." I always wonder whether
rhythm would help Lean Startup.

Anyway, being solely focused on production cost, Scrum and XP are going to
continue dealing with cost improvements indefinitely. I think cognitively
it makes sense. Developers are ill-equipped to juggle questions of value,
and having them second guess Product Owner value choices is equivalent to a
Product Owner coming into a team and asserting that their estimates are
wrong. "Build it and they will come" is a constant danger for developers
trying to act like Product Owners (I have made my own stupid mistakes
building it for customers that didn't come).

We can, I think, demand that Product Owners do a better job, because most
are barely better than random developers (in fact, at least half the POs I
know are former developers) in estimating stakeholder value. But doing a
better job is a discipline in itself, a complex adaptive system of its own.

Finally (sorry for rambling), Ben Blanquera did some great work on
integrating value into backlogs at Progressive Medical. It wasn't exactly
what you are looking for: they didn't stick an NPV number on every PBI.
However, they did demand that POs name the source of value from a giant
revenue/expense taxonomy he and the CFO put together, for each PBI. This
forces the PO to think about value rather than "phone it in" as so many POs
do.

I think his work led me to start advocating "four part user stories", like
this:

As a (stakeholder),
I (can do something new or different),
So I (get some user value),
And so (sponsoring business) (gets some business value).

This fourth clause has the same effect: it forces the PO to think about and
assert a business value for the company paying to build the software. In
this modern services world, the user and the business sponsor are usually
different.

Hope this helps, or at least is interesting.

Dan

On Friday, May 8, 2015, Charles Bradley - Professional Scrum Trainer and
Post by Charles Bradley - Professional Scrum Trainer and Coach chuck-***@emailchuck.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
I seem to remember quote similar to the following from a few years ago.
Anyone know who said it? (Maybe Agile 2012?)
(I already did several google searches myself -- to no avail)
(Speaking to the "business" I presume)
"If you're not going to estimate the value of features, then we're not
going to estimate the cost of features"
Anyone know who said it or where I can find the quote?
-------
Charles Bradley
Professional Scrum Trainer
Scrum Coach-in-Chief
http://ScrumCrazy.com <http://www.scrumcrazy.com/>
--
Dan R. Greening — http://dan.greening.org http://linkedin.com/in/greening
Srinivas ceezone@yahoo.co.in [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
2015-05-09 13:08:37 UTC
Permalink
Not only is this interesting, but it is immensely relevant. Thanks for explicating this crucial point.

Even while teaching collaboration, I often have to hand wave the issue of feedback/communication between PO and the outside world.

There is a upcoming book by Mr T Verma which explores this area... More info at:
http://managewell.net

Cheers
Srinivas
http://ceezone.wordpress.com




Sent from my iPhone
Ng
Since Scrum and XP are primarily used for production optimization—I like to say "Scrum is rhythmic experimentation to improve production"—why is it surprising that the metrics we talk about in Scrum are cost metrics: velocity, rework (aka bug count), communication (aka happiness)?
Scrum has abstracted away the very difficult task of feature valuation to the Product Owner, so much so that most CSPO training focuses on "coping with Scrum" and the mechanics of how to breakdown or refactor big stories (such as story mapping).
Into this breach flew Lean Startup, thank goodness. And now we finally have the value-based complex adaptive system converse of cost-based Scrum and XP. "Occasional experimentation to improve value." I always wonder whether rhythm would help Lean Startup.
Anyway, being solely focused on production cost, Scrum and XP are going to continue dealing with cost improvements indefinitely. I think cognitively it makes sense. Developers are ill-equipped to juggle questions of value, and having them second guess Product Owner value choices is equivalent to a Product Owner coming into a team and asserting that their estimates are wrong. "Build it and they will come" is a constant danger for developers trying to act like Product Owners (I have made my own stupid mistakes building it for customers that didn't come).
We can, I think, demand that Product Owners do a better job, because most are barely better than random developers (in fact, at least half the POs I know are former developers) in estimating stakeholder value. But doing a better job is a discipline in itself, a complex adaptive system of its own.
Finally (sorry for rambling), Ben Blanquera did some great work on integrating value into backlogs at Progressive Medical. It wasn't exactly what you are looking for: they didn't stick an NPV number on every PBI. However, they did demand that POs name the source of value from a giant revenue/expense taxonomy he and the CFO put together, for each PBI. This forces the PO to think about value rather than "phone it in" as so many POs do.
As a (stakeholder),
I (can do something new or different),
So I (get some user value),
And so (sponsoring business) (gets some business value).
This fourth clause has the same effect: it forces the PO to think about and assert a business value for the company paying to build the software. In this modern services world, the user and the business sponsor are usually different.
Hope this helps, or at least is interesting.
Dan
I seem to remember quote similar to the following from a few years ago. Anyone know who said it? (Maybe Agile 2012?)
(I already did several google searches myself -- to no avail)
(Speaking to the "business" I presume)
"If you're not going to estimate the value of features, then we're not going to estimate the cost of features"
Anyone know who said it or where I can find the quote?
-------
Charles Bradley
Professional Scrum Trainer
Scrum Coach-in-Chief
http://ScrumCrazy.com
--
Dan R. Greening — http://dan.greening.org http://linkedin.com/in/greening
Srinivas ceezone@yahoo.co.in [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
2015-05-09 13:09:44 UTC
Permalink
Btw I think the four part user story is a bloody good idea; I shall teach this in future classes.

Cheers
Srinivas

Sent from my iPhone
Since Scrum and XP are primarily used for production optimization—I like to say "Scrum is rhythmic experimentation to improve production"—why is it surprising that the metrics we talk about in Scrum are cost metrics: velocity, rework (aka bug count), communication (aka happiness)?
Scrum has abstracted away the very difficult task of feature valuation to the Product Owner, so much so that most CSPO training focuses on "coping with Scrum" and the mechanics of how to breakdown or refactor big stories (such as story mapping).
Into this breach flew Lean Startup, thank goodness. And now we finally have the value-based complex adaptive system converse of cost-based Scrum and XP. "Occasional experimentation to improve value." I always wonder whether rhythm would help Lean Startup.
Anyway, being solely focused on production cost, Scrum and XP are going to continue dealing with cost improvements indefinitely. I think cognitively it makes sense. Developers are ill-equipped to juggle questions of value, and having them second guess Product Owner value choices is equivalent to a Product Owner coming into a team and asserting that their estimates are wrong. "Build it and they will come" is a constant danger for developers trying to act like Product Owners (I have made my own stupid mistakes building it for customers that didn't come).
We can, I think, demand that Product Owners do a better job, because most are barely better than random developers (in fact, at least half the POs I know are former developers) in estimating stakeholder value. But doing a better job is a discipline in itself, a complex adaptive system of its own.
Finally (sorry for rambling), Ben Blanquera did some great work on integrating value into backlogs at Progressive Medical. It wasn't exactly what you are looking for: they didn't stick an NPV number on every PBI. However, they did demand that POs name the source of value from a giant revenue/expense taxonomy he and the CFO put together, for each PBI. This forces the PO to think about value rather than "phone it in" as so many POs do.
As a (stakeholder),
I (can do something new or different),
So I (get some user value),
And so (sponsoring business) (gets some business value).
This fourth clause has the same effect: it forces the PO to think about and assert a business value for the company paying to build the software. In this modern services world, the user and the business sponsor are usually different.
Hope this helps, or at least is interesting.
Dan
I seem to remember quote similar to the following from a few years ago. Anyone know who said it? (Maybe Agile 2012?)
(I already did several google searches myself -- to no avail)
(Speaking to the "business" I presume)
"If you're not going to estimate the value of features, then we're not going to estimate the cost of features"
Anyone know who said it or where I can find the quote?
-------
Charles Bradley
Professional Scrum Trainer
Scrum Coach-in-Chief
http://ScrumCrazy.com
--
Dan R. Greening — http://dan.greening.org http://linkedin.com/in/greening
Ron Jeffries ronjeffries@acm.org [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
2015-05-09 13:12:07 UTC
Permalink
Thinking about those dimensions of user stories is good. Writing user stories is the second worst way of communicating them.
Post by Srinivas ***@yahoo.co.in [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
Btw I think the four part user story is a bloody good idea; I shall teach this in future classes.
Ron Jeffries
ronjeffries.com <http://ronjeffries.com/>
Everything that needs to be said has already been said.
But since no one was listening, everything must be said again. -- Andre Gide
ronlichty@yahoo.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
2015-05-09 18:05:23 UTC
Permalink
@CharlesBradley: "If you don't have time to calculate value, we don't have time to calculate cost."
Jim Highsmith said it speaking to BayALN (the Agile Leadership Network chapter in San Francisco) on February 16, 2010. No doubt part of a talk he gave many other places, but that's where I heard it - and how I attributed it in the Rules of Thumb section of our book (where you may also have read it; it's on p.218): Managing the Unmanageable: Rules, Tools, and Insights for Managing Software People and Teams.
Ron Jeffries ronjeffries@acm.org [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
2015-05-09 19:20:26 UTC
Permalink
If you don’t have time to do what management wants, management may rightly decide to let you go be recalcitrant elsewhere. Refusal can lead to rapid changes of work situation.
Post by ***@yahoo.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
"If you don't have time to calculate value, we don't have time to calculate cost."
Jim Highsmith said it speaking to BayALN (the Agile Leadership Network chapter in San Francisco) on February 16, 2010. No doubt part of a talk he gave many other places, but that's where I heard it - and how I attributed it in the Rules of Thumb section of our book (where you may also have read it; it's on p.218): Managing the Unmanageable: Rules, Tools, and Insights for Managing Software People and Teams.
Ron Jeffries
ronjeffries.com <http://ronjeffries.com/>
It's true hard work never killed anybody, but I figure, why take the chance?
-- Ronald Reagan
Charles Bradley - Professional Scrum Trainer and Coach chuck-lists2@emailchuck.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
2015-05-12 01:48:38 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Ron and duly noted that one can possibly get fired for saying such things. 

Another related quote -- "Change the organization at a pace that won't get you fired"  (I first heard this quote from Mr. Ken Schwaber, not sure if it's a KS original or not.)
-------
Charles Bradley
Professional Scrum Trainer
Scrum Coach-in-Chief
http://ScrumCrazy.com


From: "Ron Jeffries ***@acm.org [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2015 12:20 PM
Subject: Re: [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] Re: Quote about estimating cost/value

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If you don’t have time to do what management wants, management may rightly decide to let you go be recalcitrant elsewhere. Refusal can lead to rapid changes of work situation.

On May 9, 2015, at 2:05 PM, ***@yahoo.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] <***@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
"If you don't have time to calculate value, we don't have time to calculate cost."Jim Highsmith said it speaking to BayALN (the Agile Leadership Network chapter in San Francisco) on February 16, 2010. No doubt part of a talk he gave many other places, but that's where I heard it - and how I attributed it in the Rules of Thumb section of our book (where you may also have read it; it's on p.218):  Managing the Unmanageable: Rules, Tools, and Insights for Managing Software People and Teams.


Ron Jeffriesronjeffries.comIt's true hard work never killed anybody, but I figure, why take the chance?-- Ronald Reagan
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