Discussion:
[SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] PO at retro
'Jean Richardson' jean@azuregate.net [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
2017-02-23 23:13:04 UTC
Permalink
I'm having the "should the Product Owner be at the retrospective"
conversation again. While, years ago, the Product Owner was optional in
this meeting, a fair amount of learning has happened since then and a range
of resources has come out advocating that the PO be present-not optional.
The current edition of the Scrum Guide doesn't help much here by referring
only to the "Scrum Team" in the section on the retro, but, then again, maybe
that's intentional, and the Ken and Jeff now believe, based on feedback and
experiments, that the PO should be present at the retro as a matter of
course.



In a situation where the relationship is not good between the PO and the
Development Team of the PO and the SM, I'm wondering about the quality of a
retro where the PO is not optional, but a required attendee. The guidance I
typically give is that the purpose of the review is to inspect the increment
and the purpose of the retro is for the team to inspect their work
processes. The most intimates changes are often within the team, and those
conversations require privacy and confidentiality to those present unless
those present determine otherwise. Therefore, I still am reasoning that the
PO is optional and included with the agreement of the Development Team.



Thoughts? References?



--- Jean











Jean Richardson

Azure Gate Consulting

~ Repatterning the Human Experience of Work



AzureGate.net

(503) 788-8998

***@AzureGate.net
George Dinwiddie lists@idiacomputing.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
2017-02-23 23:31:11 UTC
Permalink
Jean,

I think a problem lies in the phrase "the retrospective." Retrospectives
are a technique that is suitable at many scales and intervals.

The essential element of a retrospective (and one that's frequently left
out by Scrum teams) is looking back over a period of time together. You
see different things if you look over two weeks than if you look over
six months. You see different things if you include just the development
team than if you include the entire company.

Variety is the spice of life. If the presence of the PO inhibits other
members of the team, then there's no reason why they can't have their
own retro without the PO, whether or not they have one with the PO. I do
have to wonder, though, how they're going to improve their relationship
with the PO if they can't manage to talk about it in a retro.

- George
I’m having the “should the Product Owner be at the retrospective”
conversation again. While, years ago, the Product Owner was optional in
this meeting, a fair amount of learning has happened since then and a
range of resources has come out advocating that the PO be present—not
optional. The current edition of the Scrum Guide doesn’t help much here
by referring only to the “Scrum Team” in the section on the retro, but,
then again, maybe that’s intentional, and the Ken and Jeff now believe,
based on feedback and experiments, that the PO should be present at the
retro as a matter of course.
In a situation where the relationship is not good between the PO and the
Development Team of the PO and the SM, I’m wondering about the quality
of a retro where the PO is not optional, but a required attendee. The
guidance I typically give is that the purpose of the review is to
inspect the increment and the purpose of the retro is for the team to
inspect their work processes. The most intimates changes are often
within the team, and those conversations require privacy and
confidentiality to those present unless those present determine
otherwise. Therefore, I still am reasoning that the PO is optional and
included with the agreement of the Development Team.
Thoughts? References?
--- Jean
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
* George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
----------------------------------------------------------------------



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Silvana Wasitova wasitova@yahoo.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
2017-02-23 23:57:03 UTC
Permalink
Hi Jean,
re. Scrum Guide: the term "Scrum Team" is inclusive of PO, so the Scrum Guide is quite explicit about this. In fact, some improvements may need to be owned & done by the PO, so best to have that conversation with the relevant persons, e.g. re-define DoD, or clarify acceptance criteria.  
Highly performant teams I worked with have a smooth and trusting relationship with the PO, and include the PO in the Retro. The only times I've seen PO be explicitly excluded is when the PO-Dev Team relationship is strained; even then the aim is to look for ways to improve their relationship over time, and be inclusive in the (near?) future.
Silvana Wasitova

From: "'Jean Richardson' ***@azuregate.net [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2017 12:13 AM
Subject: [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] PO at retro

  I’m having the “should the Product Owner be at the retrospective” conversation again.  While, years ago, the Product Owner was optional in this meeting, a fair amount of learning has happened since then and a range of resources has come out advocating that the PO be present—not optional.  The current edition of the Scrum Guide doesn’t help much here by referring only to the “Scrum Team” in the section on the retro, but, then again, maybe that’s intentional, and the Ken and Jeff now believe, based on feedback and experiments, that the PO should be present at the retro as a matter of course.  In a situation where the relationship is not good between the PO and the Development Team of the PO and the SM, I’m wondering about the quality of a retro where the PO is not optional, but a required attendee.  The guidance I typically give is that the purpose of the review is to inspect the increment and the purpose of the retro is for the team to inspect their work processes.  The most intimates changes are often within the team, and those conversations require privacy and confidentiality to those present unless those present determine otherwise.  Therefore, I still am reasoning that the PO is optional and included with the agreement of the Development Team.  Thoughts?  References?  --- Jean    
| |
Jean RichardsonAzure Gate Consulting~ Repatterning the Human Experience of Work  AzureGate.net(503) 788-***@AzureGate.net   |

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Dan Greening dan@greening.org [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
2017-02-24 01:52:07 UTC
Permalink
Having lack of trust between the PO and the team is a serious
organizational dysfunction, that, in traditionally structured organizations
(i.e., non-Teal organizations), should be addressed by Higher Powers.
Mediation by a shared or mutually trusted manager, or maybe an
enterprise-level coach, could be called for.

Solving such problems from below, in a hierarchical organization, requires
extraordinary diplomatic skill usually beyond the capabilities of team
members. Not that it can't be done, but a great employee could sacrifice
their career if they don't have the wiles, power or credibility to
negotiate this dangerous jungle. Sometimes the product itself gets
sacrificed. Anyway, the outcome can be bad if the team just tries to solve
these problems on their own. Or they can go into avoidance behavior, making
self-organization decisions behind the PO's back in their protected
Retrospective ... which leads to this next dysfunction:

I've often argued it's unreasonable to omit the Product Owner from a
Retrospective, simply because Value is an essential metric, and without the
Product Owner any experiments or outcomes created by the team in a
retrospective are likely to perversely emphasize the other metrics, such as
code quality or team happiness, sacrificing the thing that ultimately pays
them and produces societal good: value.

No easy answers. My sympathies!

Dan R. Greening — http://dan.greening.org http://linkedin.com/in/greening
[Attachment(s) <#m_-7523623376986444101_TopText> from Silvana Wasitova
included below]
Hi Jean,
re. Scrum Guide: the term "Scrum Team" is inclusive of PO, so the Scrum
Guide is quite explicit about this. In fact, some improvements may need to
be owned & done by the PO, so best to have that conversation with the
relevant persons, e.g. re-define DoD, or clarify acceptance criteria.
Highly performant teams I worked with have a smooth and trusting
relationship with the PO, and include the PO in the Retro. The only times
I've seen PO be explicitly excluded is when the PO-Dev Team relationship is
strained; even then the aim is to look for ways to improve their
relationship over time, and be inclusive in the (near?) future.
Silvana Wasitova
------------------------------
*Sent:* Friday, February 24, 2017 12:13 AM
*Subject:* [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] PO at retro
I’m having the “should the Product Owner be at the retrospective”
conversation again. While, years ago, the Product Owner was optional in
this meeting, a fair amount of learning has happened since then and a range
of resources has come out advocating that the PO be present—not optional.
The current edition of the Scrum Guide doesn’t help much here by referring
only to the “Scrum Team” in the section on the retro, but, then again,
maybe that’s intentional, and the Ken and Jeff now believe, based on
feedback and experiments, that the PO should be present at the retro as a
matter of course.
In a situation where the relationship is not good between the PO and the
Development Team of the PO and the SM, I’m wondering about the quality of a
retro where the PO is not optional, but a required attendee. The guidance
I typically give is that the purpose of the review is to inspect the
increment and the purpose of the retro is for the team to inspect their
work processes. The most intimates changes are often within the team, and
those conversations require privacy and confidentiality to those present
unless those present determine otherwise. Therefore, I still am reasoning
that the PO is optional and included with the agreement of the Development
Team.
Thoughts? References?
--- Jean
*[image: gate.site.jpg]*
*Jean Richardson*
Azure Gate Consulting
*~ **Repatterning the Human Experience of Work*
*AzureGate.net*
(503) 788-8998
Jesse Houwing jesse.houwing@gmail.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
2017-02-24 11:14:41 UTC
Permalink
The Scrum Guide also defines the scrum team as the development team + po
+pm. Hence according to the guide the po isn't optional.

In order to improve as a team and deliver value frequently a good
relationship with the po is essential. Hopefully the team will use the
retrospective, with the po, to build that relationship.

It takes courage and respect. And contributes to transparency in order for
the much needed adaptations to happen.
Post by Dan Greening ***@greening.org [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
Having lack of trust between the PO and the team is a serious
organizational dysfunction, that, in traditionally structured organizations
(i.e., non-Teal organizations), should be addressed by Higher Powers.
Mediation by a shared or mutually trusted manager, or maybe an
enterprise-level coach, could be called for.
Solving such problems from below, in a hierarchical organization, requires
extraordinary diplomatic skill usually beyond the capabilities of team
members. Not that it can't be done, but a great employee could sacrifice
their career if they don't have the wiles, power or credibility to
negotiate this dangerous jungle. Sometimes the product itself gets
sacrificed. Anyway, the outcome can be bad if the team just tries to solve
these problems on their own. Or they can go into avoidance behavior, making
self-organization decisions behind the PO's back in their protected
I've often argued it's unreasonable to omit the Product Owner from a
Retrospective, simply because Value is an essential metric, and without the
Product Owner any experiments or outcomes created by the team in a
retrospective are likely to perversely emphasize the other metrics, such as
code quality or team happiness, sacrificing the thing that ultimately pays
them and produces societal good: value.
No easy answers. My sympathies!
Dan R. Greening — http://dan.greening.org http://linkedin.com/in/greening
[Attachment(s) <#m_8559527681105537738_m_-7523623376986444101_TopText>
from Silvana Wasitova included below]
Hi Jean,
re. Scrum Guide: the term "Scrum Team" is inclusive of PO, so the Scrum
Guide is quite explicit about this. In fact, some improvements may need to
be owned & done by the PO, so best to have that conversation with the
relevant persons, e.g. re-define DoD, or clarify acceptance criteria.
Highly performant teams I worked with have a smooth and trusting
relationship with the PO, and include the PO in the Retro. The only
times I've seen PO be explicitly excluded is when the PO-Dev Team
relationship is strained; even then the aim is to look for ways to improve
their relationship over time, and be inclusive in the (near?) future.
Silvana Wasitova
------------------------------
*Sent:* Friday, February 24, 2017 12:13 AM
*Subject:* [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] PO at retro
I’m having the “should the Product Owner be at the retrospective”
conversation again. While, years ago, the Product Owner was optional in
this meeting, a fair amount of learning has happened since then and a range
of resources has come out advocating that the PO be present—not optional.
The current edition of the Scrum Guide doesn’t help much here by referring
only to the “Scrum Team” in the section on the retro, but, then again,
maybe that’s intentional, and the Ken and Jeff now believe, based on
feedback and experiments, that the PO should be present at the retro as a
matter of course.
In a situation where the relationship is not good between the PO and the
Development Team of the PO and the SM, I’m wondering about the quality of a
retro where the PO is not optional, but a required attendee. The guidance
I typically give is that the purpose of the review is to inspect the
increment and the purpose of the retro is for the team to inspect their
work processes. The most intimates changes are often within the team, and
those conversations require privacy and confidentiality to those present
unless those present determine otherwise. Therefore, I still am reasoning
that the PO is optional and included with the agreement of the Development
Team.
Thoughts? References?
--- Jean
*[image: gate.site.jpg]*
*Jean Richardson*
Azure Gate Consulting
*~ **Repatterning the Human Experience of Work*
*AzureGate.net*
(503) 788-8998
Eric Gunnerson Eric.Gunnerson@microsoft.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
2017-02-24 18:37:36 UTC
Permalink
Dan,

I agree with most of what you say, but as a dev who has worked on a lot of teams, I’d like to expand a bit on the product owner defining what value is to the company.

Most product owners I’ve worked with operate from a short-term perspective; they are concerned with what features are coming out in the next 3 months or so. From that perspective, it is almost always the right decision to postpone improvement/code quality/developer training activities, because it reduces what you can deliver in that timeframe. So if you have that product owner defining value, you will underinvest in non-feature items, and over time your codebase will deteriorate, you will start generating more bugs, and you will slow down. And developers are very used to working in this sort of environment, and they are good at pushing short-term value out quickly while letting things slide, even if you have a decent definition of “done done”.

I’ve seen a number of different ways of trying to deal with this, and the only one that worked well was to use a budget-based approach, and to get a higher-level agreement on how much to invest in non-feature activities (as a reference, I asked at Agile Open Northwest a few weeks back and the answers I got were in the 30-50% range). And then you trust the team to spend that budget wisely. My experience is that if you have devs who have spent a lot of time in short-term-value-driven environment, your problems are not around overspending the budget, but underspending.

Eric

From: ***@yahoogroups.com [mailto:***@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2017 5:52 PM
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] PO at retro


Having lack of trust between the PO and the team is a serious organizational dysfunction, that, in traditionally structured organizations (i.e., non-Teal organizations), should be addressed by Higher Powers. Mediation by a shared or mutually trusted manager, or maybe an enterprise-level coach, could be called for.

Solving such problems from below, in a hierarchical organization, requires extraordinary diplomatic skill usually beyond the capabilities of team members. Not that it can't be done, but a great employee could sacrifice their career if they don't have the wiles, power or credibility to negotiate this dangerous jungle. Sometimes the product itself gets sacrificed. Anyway, the outcome can be bad if the team just tries to solve these problems on their own. Or they can go into avoidance behavior, making self-organization decisions behind the PO's back in their protected Retrospective ... which leads to this next dysfunction:

I've often argued it's unreasonable to omit the Product Owner from a Retrospective, simply because Value is an essential metric, and without the Product Owner any experiments or outcomes created by the team in a retrospective are likely to perversely emphasize the other metrics, such as code quality or team happiness, sacrificing the thing that ultimately pays them and produces societal good: value.

No easy answers. My sympathies!

Dan R. Greening — http://dan.greening.org<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fdan.greening.org&data=02%7C01%7CEric.Gunnerson%40microsoft.com%7Cfb699284099345eff8c208d45c57fd6a%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636234980363992861&sdata=5CtrggpPu6ru1kgoWUwh0v%2BXo7%2FgMo8QES9QithMHsI%3D&reserved=0> http://linkedin.com/in/greening<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flinkedin.com%2Fin%2Fgreening&data=02%7C01%7CEric.Gunnerson%40microsoft.com%7Cfb699284099345eff8c208d45c57fd6a%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636234980363992861&sdata=rjQ1we5X0UhaVSN6TT2N8lxFMBeT%2FlHbarldkdodofc%3D&reserved=0>

On Thu, Feb 23, 2017 at 3:57 PM, Silvana Wasitova ***@yahoo.com<mailto:***@yahoo.com> [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] <***@yahoogroups.com<mailto:***@yahoogroups.com>> wrote:

[Attachment(s) from Silvana Wasitova included below]
Hi Jean,

re. Scrum Guide: the term "Scrum Team" is inclusive of PO, so the Scrum Guide is quite explicit about this. In fact, some improvements may need to be owned & done by the PO, so best to have that conversation with the relevant persons, e.g. re-define DoD, or clarify acceptance criteria.

Highly performant teams I worked with have a smooth and trusting relationship with the PO, and include the PO in the Retro. The only times I've seen PO be explicitly excluded is when the PO-Dev Team relationship is strained; even then the aim is to look for ways to improve their relationship over time, and be inclusive in the (near?) future.

Silvana Wasitova


________________________________
From: "'Jean Richardson' ***@azuregate.net<mailto:***@azuregate.net> [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]" <***@yahoogroups.com<mailto:***@yahoogroups.com>>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com<mailto:***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2017 12:13 AM
Subject: [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] PO at retro


I’m having the “should the Product Owner be at the retrospective” conversation again. While, years ago, the Product Owner was optional in this meeting, a fair amount of learning has happened since then and a range of resources has come out advocating that the PO be present—not optional. The current edition of the Scrum Guide doesn’t help much here by referring only to the “Scrum Team” in the section on the retro, but, then again, maybe that’s intentional, and the Ken and Jeff now believe, based on feedback and experiments, that the PO should be present at the retro as a matter of course.

In a situation where the relationship is not good between the PO and the Development Team of the PO and the SM, I’m wondering about the quality of a retro where the PO is not optional, but a required attendee. The guidance I typically give is that the purpose of the review is to inspect the increment and the purpose of the retro is for the team to inspect their work processes. The most intimates changes are often within the team, and those conversations require privacy and confidentiality to those present unless those present determine otherwise. Therefore, I still am reasoning that the PO is optional and included with the agreement of the Development Team.

Thoughts? References?

--- Jean


Error! Filename not specified.


Jean Richardson
Azure Gate Consulting
~ Repatterning the Human Experience of Work

AzureGate.net
(503) 788-8998
***@AzureGate.net

Rajaraman Kannan leokannan@gmail.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
2017-02-24 00:05:21 UTC
Permalink
Hi Jean,
I agree with Silvana. It depends on how the PO's relationship with the
team. It is very beneficial to have PO as part of the team and involving
him in the retrospectives. This gives PO the confidence about the team
dynamics and enthusiasm to improve. I have always recommended PO and SM to
work as much closely with the team, so there is a sense of one team.
If there is a strained relationship, I would go back to the Team vision and
working agreements and help to resolve the conflict, so that there is trust
between the PO and the Team, which is very important.




Cheers
Raj
[Attachment(s) <#m_1793012503871926239_TopText> from Silvana Wasitova
included below]
Hi Jean,
re. Scrum Guide: the term "Scrum Team" is inclusive of PO, so the Scrum
Guide is quite explicit about this. In fact, some improvements may need to
be owned & done by the PO, so best to have that conversation with the
relevant persons, e.g. re-define DoD, or clarify acceptance criteria.
Highly performant teams I worked with have a smooth and trusting
relationship with the PO, and include the PO in the Retro. The only times
I've seen PO be explicitly excluded is when the PO-Dev Team relationship is
strained; even then the aim is to look for ways to improve their
relationship over time, and be inclusive in the (near?) future.
Silvana Wasitova
------------------------------
*Sent:* Friday, February 24, 2017 12:13 AM
*Subject:* [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] PO at retro
I’m having the “should the Product Owner be at the retrospective”
conversation again. While, years ago, the Product Owner was optional in
this meeting, a fair amount of learning has happened since then and a range
of resources has come out advocating that the PO be present—not optional.
The current edition of the Scrum Guide doesn’t help much here by referring
only to the “Scrum Team” in the section on the retro, but, then again,
maybe that’s intentional, and the Ken and Jeff now believe, based on
feedback and experiments, that the PO should be present at the retro as a
matter of course.
In a situation where the relationship is not good between the PO and the
Development Team of the PO and the SM, I’m wondering about the quality of a
retro where the PO is not optional, but a required attendee. The guidance
I typically give is that the purpose of the review is to inspect the
increment and the purpose of the retro is for the team to inspect their
work processes. The most intimates changes are often within the team, and
those conversations require privacy and confidentiality to those present
unless those present determine otherwise. Therefore, I still am reasoning
that the PO is optional and included with the agreement of the Development
Team.
Thoughts? References?
--- Jean
*[image: gate.site.jpg]*
*Jean Richardson*
Azure Gate Consulting
*~ **Repatterning the Human Experience of Work*
*AzureGate.net*
(503) 788-8998
--
Kannan
Dennis Mansell dennmans@gmail.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
2017-02-24 09:11:00 UTC
Permalink
Hi All,


This comes up quite a lot. I'm glad that the Scrum Guide explicitly states
the entire teams presence is required - no hiding behind the rulebook that
way. The result can be decreased safety to speak your mind but the cause is
not the PO's presence but some underlying factor that causes that

discomfort. More-, not less transparency is more likely to present
solutions in my experience.


I have tried POless retrospectives but that has always kept in place or
increased the business-developer divide. Have any of you had good outcomes
from choosing privacy over transparency?


Dennis




On 24 Feb 2017 1:00 am, "Silvana Wasitova ***@yahoo.com
[SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]" <***@yahoogroups.com> wrote:




[Attachment(s) <#m_1630651026666345835_TopText> from Silvana Wasitova
included below]


Hi Jean,


re. Scrum Guide: the term "Scrum Team" is inclusive of PO, so the Scrum
Guide is quite explicit about this. In fact, some improvements may need to
be owned & done by the PO, so best to have that conversation with the
relevant persons, e.g. re-define DoD, or clarify acceptance criteria.


Highly performant teams I worked with have a smooth and trusting
relationship with the PO, and include the PO in the Retro. The only times
I've seen PO be explicitly excluded is when the PO-Dev Team relationship is
strained; even then the aim is to look for ways to improve their
relationship over time, and be inclusive in the (near?) future.


Silvana Wasitova




------------------------------
*From:* "'Jean Richardson' ***@azuregate.net [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]" <
***@yahoogroups.com>
*To:* ***@yahoogroups.com
*Sent:* Friday, February 24, 2017 12:13 AM
*Subject:* [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] PO at retro





I’m having the “should the Product Owner be at the retrospective”
conversation again. While, years ago, the Product Owner was optional in
this meeting, a fair amount of learning has happened since then and a range
of resources has come out advocating that the PO be present—not optional.
The current edition of the Scrum Guide doesn’t help much here by referring
only to the “Scrum Team” in the section on the retro, but, then again,
maybe that’s intentional, and the Ken and Jeff now believe, based on
feedback and experiments, that the PO should be present at the retro as a
matter of course.


In a situation where the relationship is not good between the PO and the
Development Team of the PO and the SM, I’m wondering about the quality of a
retro where the PO is not optional, but a required attendee. The guidance
I typically give is that the purpose of the review is to inspect the
increment and the purpose of the retro is for the team to inspect their
work processes. The most intimates changes are often within the team, and
those conversations require privacy and confidentiality to those present
unless those present determine otherwise. Therefore, I still am reasoning
that the PO is optional and included with the agreement of the Development
Team.


Thoughts? References?


--- Jean




*[image: gate.site.jpg]*


*Jean Richardson*
Azure Gate Consulting
*~ **Repatterning the Human Experience of Work*


*AzureGate.net*
(503) 788-8998
***@AzureGate.net
srinivas chillara ceezone@yahoo.co.in [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
2017-02-24 03:36:28 UTC
Permalink
I tend to agree with you Ms Richardson.And Mr Dinwiddie has a very valid point. How about having an agreement that the team can invite the PO for retro (if it wants) and SM keeps an eye on the side-effects of such decisions? Or PO stays for sometime (20 min) and then leaves--- this worked for teams I coached.
cheersSrinivashttp://ceezone.wordress.com


From: "'Jean Richardson' ***@azuregate.net [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, 24 February 2017 4:43 AM
Subject: [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] PO at retro

  I’m having the “should the Product Owner be at the retrospective” conversation again.  While, years ago, the Product Owner was optional in this meeting, a fair amount of learning has happened since then and a range of resources has come out advocating that the PO be present—not optional.  The current edition of the Scrum Guide doesn’t help much here by referring only to the “Scrum Team” in the section on the retro, but, then again, maybe that’s intentional, and the Ken and Jeff now believe, based on feedback and experiments, that the PO should be present at the retro as a matter of course.  In a situation where the relationship is not good between the PO and the Development Team of the PO and the SM, I’m wondering about the quality of a retro where the PO is not optional, but a required attendee.  The guidance I typically give is that the purpose of the review is to inspect the increment and the purpose of the retro is for the team to inspect their work processes.  The most intimates changes are often within the team, and those conversations require privacy and confidentiality to those present unless those present determine otherwise.  Therefore, I still am reasoning that the PO is optional and included with the agreement of the Development Team.  Thoughts?  References?  --- Jean    
| |
Jean RichardsonAzure Gate Consulting~ Repatterning the Human Experience of Work  AzureGate.net(503) 788-***@AzureGate.net   |

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Barbara Kryvko barbarastl@charter.net [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
2017-02-24 03:52:12 UTC
Permalink
What does the team want? I've had teams that want the PO there, teams that
don't, and teams that invite them from time to time. I even had one team
that had two retrospectives a month, and invited the PO to one of them --
and had the other by themselves. The question ultimately has to be: who
needs to be there to have valuable conversations that result in robust
action items?


Barbara
[Attachment(s) <#m_-460488059543932432_TopText> from srinivas chillara
included below]
I tend to agree with you Ms Richardson.
And Mr Dinwiddie has a very valid point. How about having an agreement
that the team can invite the PO for retro (if it wants) and SM keeps an eye
on the side-effects of such decisions? Or PO stays for sometime (20 min)
and then leaves--- this worked for teams I coached.
cheers
Srinivas
http://ceezone.wordress.com
------------------------------
*Sent:* Friday, 24 February 2017 4:43 AM
*Subject:* [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] PO at retro
I’m having the “should the Product Owner be at the retrospective”
conversation again. While, years ago, the Product Owner was optional in
this meeting, a fair amount of learning has happened since then and a range
of resources has come out advocating that the PO be present—not optional.
The current edition of the Scrum Guide doesn’t help much here by referring
only to the “Scrum Team” in the section on the retro, but, then again,
maybe that’s intentional, and the Ken and Jeff now believe, based on
feedback and experiments, that the PO should be present at the retro as a
matter of course.
In a situation where the relationship is not good between the PO and the
Development Team of the PO and the SM, I’m wondering about the quality of a
retro where the PO is not optional, but a required attendee. The guidance
I typically give is that the purpose of the review is to inspect the
increment and the purpose of the retro is for the team to inspect their
work processes. The most intimates changes are often within the team, and
those conversations require privacy and confidentiality to those present
unless those present determine otherwise. Therefore, I still am reasoning
that the PO is optional and included with the agreement of the Development
Team.
Thoughts? References?
--- Jean
*[image: gate.site.jpg]*
*Jean Richardson*
Azure Gate Consulting
*~ **Repatterning the Human Experience of Work*
*AzureGate.net*
(503) 788-8998
Sivaraman Ganapathy Krishnamoorthy kaygeeyes@gmail.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
2017-02-24 16:24:52 UTC
Permalink
My experience : Retro must have PO included.


When I taken over as a Scrum Master for the existing team and found during
retro w.o PO - due to the misunderstanding between PO and team. When I
checked with the team for the reason, got a feedback that he tried to boss
over all of them and didn't discuss in details of stories. So I talked to
the PO and insist on the need to explain in details of the US and his
presence in the retro for the improvement of performance of the team.
Believe me, it did wonder from the next sprint.


Regards
Siva
Post by Silvana Wasitova ***@yahoo.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
I’m having the “should the Product Owner be at the retrospective”
conversation again. While, years ago, the Product Owner was optional in
this meeting, a fair amount of learning has happened since then and a range
of resources has come out advocating that the PO be present—not optional.
The current edition of the Scrum Guide doesn’t help much here by referring
only to the “Scrum Team” in the section on the retro, but, then again,
maybe that’s intentional, and the Ken and Jeff now believe, based on
feedback and experiments, that the PO should be present at the retro as a
matter of course.
In a situation where the relationship is not good between the PO and the
Development Team of the PO and the SM, I’m wondering about the quality of a
retro where the PO is not optional, but a required attendee. The guidance
I typically give is that the purpose of the review is to inspect the
increment and the purpose of the retro is for the team to inspect their
work processes. The most intimates changes are often within the team, and
those conversations require privacy and confidentiality to those present
unless those present determine otherwise. Therefore, I still am reasoning
that the PO is optional and included with the agreement of the Development
Team.
Thoughts? References?
--- Jean
*[image: gate.site.jpg]*
*Jean Richardson*
Azure Gate Consulting
*~ **Repatterning the Human Experience of Work*
*AzureGate.net*
(503) 788-8998
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