that preso on "When Can We Stop Doing Agile"

[Jean Richardson]

I am sitting here working on a blog post and just realized that I had not
followed up on my commitment to respond to Ron Jeffries' invitation to tell
you all how that presentation went a week ago last Friday.



Well, it seemed to go fine, though it felt a bit difficult at the time. The
crowd was larger and quieter than is usual for that venue. The organizers
told me that they had never seen at least 30% of the audience before, so
they must have come to hear the topic.



Only one person in attendance indicated that he was not a member of the
project management community. He was a senior engineer who seemed to have a
lot of agile background. You may be happy to hear, as I was, that I had not
betrayed the agile community during my presentation. Maintaining the
message when speaking across philosophical boundaries can be a challenge.
Many people stayed after to talk and a couple attended a related follow on
discussion the next week hosted by Agile PDX. One person confronted me
after everyone else had left to inform me that this would all be a lot
easier if executive leadership was already on board . . . (?!).
Apparently, a number of people who worked in the company that provided the
space for the meeting went back to their work groups and talked about the
presentation in positive terms.



I expect part of the reason the audience was quiet was that the data was
sobering, it was coming pretty fast, and it was coming from both PMI and
non-PMI sources. I may also not have been at my best as a presenter. If
you want to see the slides, you can display a PDF of them here:
http://azuregate.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/When-Can-We-Stop-Doing-Agile
-slides1.pdf



--- Jean




gate.site.jpg




Jean Richardson

Azure Gate Consulting

~ Repatterning the Human Experience of Work



AzureGate.net

[phone]

***@AzureGate.net

[Ron Jeffries]

Jean,

Only one person in attendance indicated that he was not a member of the project management community. He was a senior engineer who seemed to have a lot of agile background. You may be happy to hear, as I was, that I had not betrayed the agile community during my presentation. Maintaining the message when speaking across philosophical boundaries can be a challenge. Many people stayed after to talk and a couple attended a related follow on discussion the next week hosted by Agile PDX. One person confronted me after everyone else had left to inform me that this would all be a lot easier if executive leadership was already on board . . . (?!). Apparently, a number of people who worked in the company that provided the space for the meeting went back to their work groups and talked about the presentation in positive terms.

Looks nice, and, to me, the data tells a pretty strong story. Thanks!

Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com
I'm really pissed off by what people are passing off as "agile" these days.
You may have a red car, but that does not make it a Ferrari.
-- Steve Hayes

[s***@tobymayer.com]

Lots of interesting data, but it leaves the question open: When can we stop doing Agile? I'm guessing that is deliberate :/ or maybe the underlying message is "we can't, not yet". I'm not really sure.


I was intrigued by the title of this thread because I've been feeling for a while that the term "Agile" too often gets in the way of doing what is right—doing what is better. There are many today who have had poor, even lousy experiences of "doing Agile" and it has tainted their thinking against this way of working. Sometimes quite justifiably. A few of us in my place of work are looking at how to recast the message in more widely-acceptable terms, using non-uppercase words. Drawing from Dan Pink, we are focusing on autonomy, mastery and purpose, drawing on improv we are focusing on deep collaboration, drawing on Boal we are focusing on confrontation... and drawing on Bill & Ted we are focusing on excellence :)


Agile strives for a state where people work in harmony, embracing tension and differences, producing compelling products for excited customers, with the highest possible quality within the given constraints. I don't believe I need to label myself Agile to strive for these things.


So when can we stop doing Agile? Maybe now, today.


Tobias




---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote:

I am sitting here working on a blog post and just realized that I had not followed up on my commitment to respond to Ron Jeffries’ invitation to tell you all how that presentation went a week ago last Friday.

Well, it seemed to go fine, though it felt a bit difficult at the time. The crowd was larger and quieter than is usual for that venue. The organizers told me that they had never seen at least 30% of the audience before, so they must have come to hear the topic.

Only one person in attendance indicated that he was not a member of the project management community. He was a senior engineer who seemed to have a lot of agile background. You may be happy to hear, as I was, that I had not betrayed the agile community during my presentation. Maintaining the message when speaking across philosophical boundaries can be a challenge. Many people stayed after to talk and a couple attended a related follow on discussion the next week hosted by Agile PDX. One person confronted me after everyone else had left to inform me that this would all be a lot easier if executive leadership was already on board . . . (?!). Apparently, a number of people who worked in the company that provided the space for the meeting went back to their work groups and talked about the presentation in positive terms.

I expect part of the reason the audience was quiet was that the data was sobering, it was coming pretty fast, and it was coming from both PMI and non-PMI sources. I may also not have been at my best as a presenter. If you want to see the slides, you can display a PDF of them here: http://azuregate.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/When-Can-We-Stop-Doing-Agile-slides1.pdf http://azuregate.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/When-Can-We-Stop-Doing-Agile-slides1.pdf

--- Jean




Jean Richardson
Azure Gate Consulting
~ Repatterning the Human Experience of Work

AzureGate.net
[phone]
***@...

[Srinivas]

Not only is everyone doing it; But also many consultants are already doing agile transformation! Now we must move on to higher things and do agile transmogrification and stop this agile thingamajiggy.

Cheers
Srinivas
PS: sorry Tobias, if I find this discussion tiresome.

Sent from my iPhone

Post by s***@tobymayer.com
Lots of interesting data, but it leaves the question open: When can we stop doing Agile? I'm guessing that is deliberate :/ or maybe the underlying message is "we can't, not yet". I'm not really sure.
I was intrigued by the title of this thread because I've been feeling for a while that the term "Agile" too often gets in the way of doing what is right—doing what is better. There are many today who have had poor, even lousy experiences of "doing Agile" and it has tainted their thinking against this way of working. Sometimes quite justifiably. A few of us in my place of work are looking at how to recast the message in more widely-acceptable terms, using non-uppercase words. Drawing from Dan Pink, we are focusing on autonomy, mastery and purpose, drawing on improv we are focusing on deep collaboration, drawing on Boal we are focusing on confrontation... and drawing on Bill & Ted we are focusing on excellence :)
Agile strives for a state where people work in harmony, embracing tension and differences, producing compelling products for excited customers, with the highest possible quality within the given constraints. I don't believe I need to label myself Agile to strive for these things.
So when can we stop doing Agile? Maybe now, today.
Tobias
I am sitting here working on a blog post and just realized that I had not followed up on my commitment to respond to Ron Jeffries’ invitation to tell you all how that presentation went a week ago last Friday.
Well, it seemed to go fine, though it felt a bit difficult at the time. The crowd was larger and quieter than is usual for that venue. The organizers told me that they had never seen at least 30% of the audience before, so they must have come to hear the topic.
Only one person in attendance indicated that he was not a member of the project management community. He was a senior engineer who seemed to have a lot of agile background. You may be happy to hear, as I was, that I had not betrayed the agile community during my presentation. Maintaining the message when speaking across philosophical boundaries can be a challenge. Many people stayed after to talk and a couple attended a related follow on discussion the next week hosted by Agile PDX. One person confronted me after everyone else had left to inform me that this would all be a lot easier if executive leadership was already on board . . . (?!). Apparently, a number of people who worked in the company that provided the space for the meeting went back to their work groups and talked about the presentation in positive terms.
I expect part of the reason the audience was quiet was that the data was sobering, it was coming pretty fast, and it was coming from both PMI and non-PMI sources. I may also not have been at my best as a presenter. If you want to see the slides, you can display a PDF of them here: http://azuregate.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/When-Can-We-Stop-Doing-Agile-slides1.pdf
--- Jean
Jean Richardson
Azure Gate Consulting
~ Repatterning the Human Experience of Work
AzureGate.net
[phone]
Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (3)
RECENT ACTIVITY: New Members 3
Visit Your Group

[Adam Sroka]

IIRC the "has Agile jumped the shark?" Debate started in about 2003. Ten
years later the state of IT is dismal enough that I'm not worried about
finding clients.

"Everyone is doing Agile" near as I can tell means that they have daily
meetings and hire scrummasters who've never done it either.

Post by Srinivas
Not only is everyone doing it; But also many consultants are already doing
agile transformation! Now we must move on to higher things and do agile
transmogrification and stop this agile thingamajiggy.
Cheers
Srinivas
PS: sorry Tobias, if I find this discussion tiresome.
Sent from my iPhone
Lots of interesting data, but it leaves the question open: When can we
stop doing Agile? I'm guessing that is deliberate :/ or maybe the
underlying message is "we can't, not yet". I'm not really sure.
I was intrigued by the title of this thread because I've been feeling for
a while that the term "Agile" too often gets in the way of doing what is
right—doing what is better. There are many today who have had poor, even
lousy experiences of "doing Agile" and it has tainted their thinking
against this way of working. Sometimes quite justifiably. A few of us in my
place of work are looking at how to recast the message in more
widely-acceptable terms, using non-uppercase words. Drawing from Dan Pink,
we are focusing on autonomy, mastery and purpose, drawing on improv we are
focusing on deep collaboration, drawing on Boal we are focusing on
confrontation... and drawing on Bill & Ted we are focusing on excellence :)
Agile strives for a state where people work in harmony, embracing tension
and differences, producing compelling products for excited customers, with
the highest possible quality within the given constraints. I don't believe
I need to label myself Agile to strive for these things.
So when can we stop doing Agile? Maybe now, today.
Tobias
I am sitting here working on a blog post and just realized that I had not
followed up on my commitment to respond to Ron Jeffries’ invitation to tell
you all how that presentation went a week ago last Friday.
Well, it seemed to go fine, though it felt a bit difficult at the time.
The crowd was larger and quieter than is usual for that venue. The
organizers told me that they had never seen at least 30% of the audience
before, so they must have come to hear the topic.
Only one person in attendance indicated that he was not a member of the
project management community. He was a senior engineer who seemed to have
a lot of agile background. You may be happy to hear, as I was, that I had
not betrayed the agile community during my presentation. Maintaining the
message when speaking across philosophical boundaries can be a challenge.
Many people stayed after to talk and a couple attended a related follow on
discussion the next week hosted by Agile PDX. One person confronted me
after everyone else had left to inform me that this would all be a lot
easier if executive leadership was already on board . . . (?!).
Apparently, a number of people who worked in the company that provided the
space for the meeting went back to their work groups and talked about the
presentation in positive terms.
I expect part of the reason the audience was quiet was that the data was
sobering, it was coming pretty fast, and it was coming from both PMI and
non-PMI sources. I may also not have been at my best as a presenter. If
<http://azuregate.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/When-Can-We-Stop-Doing-Agile-slides1.pdf>
http://azuregate.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/When-Can-We-Stop-Doing-Agile-slides1.pdf
--- Jean
*[image: gate.site.jpg]*
*Jean Richardson*
Azure Gate Consulting
*~ **Repatterning the Human Experience of Work*
*AzureGate.net <http://AzureGate.net>*
[phone]
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[Michael Wollin]

Overheard: "Let's be agile and skip the stand-up."

"Everyone is doing Agile" near as I can tell means that they have daily meetings and hire scrummasters who've never done it either.

[Srinivas]

Hyperagile, eh what!?!

Sent from my iPhone

Post by Michael Wollin
Overheard: "Let's be agile and skip the stand-up."

"Everyone is doing Agile" near as I can tell means that they have daily meetings and hire scrummasters who've never done it either.

[s***@tobymayer.com]

Is it just me, or do none of these comments actually add anything useful to this conversation? —except perhaps to illustrate the point that the term "Agile" is misunderstood, misappropriated and doesn't add value to the work we want to do.


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote:

Hyperagile, eh what!?!

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 20, 2013, at 9:49 AM, Michael Wollin <***@... mailto:***@...> wrote:



Overheard: "Let's be agile and skip the stand-up."

On Nov 19, 2013, at 11:09 PM, Adam Sroka < mailto:***@...adam.sroka@... mailto:***@...> wrote:

"Everyone is doing Agile" near as I can tell means that they have daily meetings and hire scrummasters who've never done it either.

[Jean Richardson]

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--> </style> </head> <html><head></head><body data-blackberry-caret-color="#00a8df" style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); line-height: initial;"> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <br><br> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <div id="BB10_response_div" style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Pls propose your favorite alternative term.</div> <div id="response_div_spacer" style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br style="display:initial"></div> <div id="_signaturePlaceholder" style="font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Verizon Wireless 4G LTE network.</div> <table width="100%" style="background-color:white;border-spacing:0px;"> <tbody><tr><td id="_persistentHeaderContainer" colspan="2" style="font-size: initial; text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"> <div id="_persistentHeader" style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0in 0in; font-family: Tahoma, 'BB Alpha Sans', 'Slate Pro'; font-size: 10pt;"> <div><b>From: </b>***@tobymayer.com</div><div><b>Sent: </b>Thursday, November 21, 2013 6:16 AM</div><div><b>To: </b>***@yahoogroups.com</div><div><b>Reply To: </b>***@yahoogroups.com</div><div><b>Subject: </b>[SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] RE: that preso on &amp;quot;When Can We Stop Doing Agile&amp;quot;</div></div></td></tr></tbody></table><div id="_persistentHeaderEnd" style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(186, 188, 209); border-top-width: 1pt; font-size: initial; text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"></div><br><div id="_originalContent" style=""> <span style="display:none">&nbsp;</span> <div id="ygrp-text"> <p></p><p>Is it just me, or do none of these comments actually add anything useful to this conversation? ?except perhaps to illustrate the point that the term "Agile" is misunderstood, misappropriated and doesn't add value to the work we want to do.</p> <div class="ygroups-quoted"><br><br>---In ***@yahoogroups.com, &lt;***@...&gt; wrote:<br><br><div id="ygrps-yiv-1643422196"><div>Hyperagile, eh what!?!&nbsp;<br><br>Sent from my iPhone</div><div><br><blockquote><span class=""> On Nov 20, 2013, at 9:49 AM, Michael Wollin &lt;<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="mailto:***@...">***@...</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></span></blockquote></div><div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div> <span>&nbsp;</span> <div id="ygrps-yiv-1643422196ygrp-text"> <p>Overheard: "Let's be agile and skip the stand-up."</p><div><br><div><div>On Nov 19, 2013, at 11:09 PM, Adam Sroka &lt;<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="mailto:***@..."></a><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="mailto:***@...">***@...</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class="ygrps-yiv-1643422196Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div style="font-family:Georgia;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;">"Everyone is doing Agile" near as I can tell means that they have daily meetings and hire scrummasters who've never done it either.&nbsp;<span></span></div><br class="ygrps-yiv-1643422196Apple-interchange-newline"></blockquote></div><br></div>

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[s***@tobymayer.com]

Alternative to Be Agile:
Be Excellent :)



---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote:

Pls propose your favorite alternative term.


Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Verizon Wireless 4G LTE network.
From: ***@...
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2013 6:16 AM
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Reply To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] RE: that preso on &quot;When Can We Stop Doing Agile&quot;



Is it just me, or do none of these comments actually add anything useful to this conversation? —except perhaps to illustrate the point that the term "Agile" is misunderstood, misappropriated and doesn't add value to the work we want to do.


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote:

Hyperagile, eh what!?!

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 20, 2013, at 9:49 AM, Michael Wollin <***@... mailto:***@...> wrote:



Overheard: "Let's be agile and skip the stand-up."

On Nov 19, 2013, at 11:09 PM, Adam Sroka < mailto:***@...adam.sroka@... mailto:***@...> wrote:

"Everyone is doing Agile" near as I can tell means that they have daily meetings and hire scrummasters who've never done it either.

[Adam Sroka]

I'm not so sure that misunderstanding/misappropriating is the core of the
issue. Agile seems to have come to mean a lot of different things to a lot
of different people:

1) For some it is merely a marketing term. Despite the intent of the
original authors I think this has become the dominant interpretation.

2) For some it is a philosophy, almost a way of life.

3) For some it is a call to action. I think this is closest to the original
authors' intent.

The thing that all three have in common is that none are particularly
actionable on their own. So, we can talk about Agile and what it means to
try to come to an understanding about what we value, but at the end of the
day we need to investigate a whole bunch of ideas and approaches to decide
what we will actually do.

The advantage of talking about values is that if we are truly honest with
one another about what we value and can find some alignment it can be
incredibly unifying and empowering for the whole team. The problem is that
if we aren't honest and/or don't find alignment we end up stuck. We have no
new information about how to move forward.

The other problem is that we can agree about what we value, honestly or
not, and still not act (or know how to act) accordingly. This is analogous
to politics, IMO. Politicians spend a lot of time talking about what they
believe, but as a voter I am far more interested in what they actually do.

This is a complex, nuanced issue, and I don't have a solution. All I can
say is that as a coach I have found it valuable to focus on what we do 80%
of the time. It helps to know what the client values and if those values
align with my own. If they don't I don't want them as a client. If they do,
then we don't have to talk about values except for when we aren't sure why
we are doing something or why we should/should't be doing something.

Post by s***@tobymayer.com
Is it just me, or do none of these comments actually add anything useful
to this conversation? —except perhaps to illustrate the point that the term
"Agile" is misunderstood, misappropriated and doesn't add value to the work
we want to do.
Hyperagile, eh what!?!
Sent from my iPhone
Overheard: "Let's be agile and skip the stand-up."
"Everyone is doing Agile" near as I can tell means that they have daily
meetings and hire scrummasters who've never done it either.

[srinivas chillara]

Agreed. Every person seems to have a different idea (usually fairly muddled) of what this is all about. Now its largely just a buzzword.

Moreover these days it is about being, not just doing.  It makes me faint.

cheers
Srinivas
http://ceezone.wordpress.com





From: Adam Sroka <***@gmail.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, 21 November 2013 9:08 PM
Subject: Re: [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] RE: that preso on "When Can We Stop Doing Agile"



 
I'm not so sure that misunderstanding/misappropriating is the core of the issue. Agile seems to have come to mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people:

1) For some it is merely a marketing term. Despite the intent of the original authors I think this has become the dominant interpretation. 

2) For some it is a philosophy, almost a way of life. 

3) For some it is a call to action. I think this is closest to the original authors' intent. 

The thing that all three have in common is that none are particularly actionable on their own. So, we can talk about Agile and what it means to try to come to an understanding about what we value, but at the end of the day we need to investigate a whole bunch of ideas and approaches to decide what we will actually do. 

The advantage of talking about values is that if we are truly honest with one another about what we value and can find some alignment it can be incredibly unifying and empowering for the whole team. The problem is that if we aren't honest and/or don't find alignment we end up stuck. We have no new information about how to move forward. 

The other problem is that we can agree about what we value, honestly or not, and still not act (or know how to act) accordingly. This is analogous to politics, IMO. Politicians spend a lot of time talking about what they believe, but as a voter I am far more interested in what they actually do. 

This is a complex, nuanced issue, and I don't have a solution. All I can say is that as a coach I have found it valuable to focus on what we do 80% of the time. It helps to know what the client values and if those values align with my own. If they don't I don't want them as a client. If they do, then we don't have to talk about values except for when we aren't sure why we are doing something or why we should/should't be doing something. 

Post by s***@tobymayer.com
 
Is it just me, or do none of these comments actually add anything useful to this conversation? —except perhaps to illustrate the point that the term "Agile" is misunderstood, misappropriated and doesn't add value to the work we want to do.
Hyperagile, eh what!?! 
Sent from my iPhone
 

Post by Michael Wollin
Overheard: "Let's be agile and skip the stand-up."
"Everyone is doing Agile" near as I can tell means that they have daily meetings and hire scrummasters who've never done it either. 

[Jean Richardson]

Adam, what you say here makes me want to read more of your off-list writing. I’ll go search for it.



I’m not sure if it addresses Tobias’s concern.



--- Jean



From: ***@yahoogroups.com [mailto:***@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Adam Sroka
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2013 7:39 AM
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] RE: that preso on &quot;When Can We Stop Doing Agile&quot;





I'm not so sure that misunderstanding/misappropriating is the core of the issue. Agile seems to have come to mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people:



1) For some it is merely a marketing term. Despite the intent of the original authors I think this has become the dominant interpretation.



2) For some it is a philosophy, almost a way of life.



3) For some it is a call to action. I think this is closest to the original authors' intent.



The thing that all three have in common is that none are particularly actionable on their own. So, we can talk about Agile and what it means to try to come to an understanding about what we value, but at the end of the day we need to investigate a whole bunch of ideas and approaches to decide what we will actually do.



The advantage of talking about values is that if we are truly honest with one another about what we value and can find some alignment it can be incredibly unifying and empowering for the whole team. The problem is that if we aren't honest and/or don't find alignment we end up stuck. We have no new information about how to move forward.



The other problem is that we can agree about what we value, honestly or not, and still not act (or know how to act) accordingly. This is analogous to politics, IMO. Politicians spend a lot of time talking about what they believe, but as a voter I am far more interested in what they actually do.



This is a complex, nuanced issue, and I don't have a solution. All I can say is that as a coach I have found it valuable to focus on what we do 80% of the time. It helps to know what the client values and if those values align with my own. If they don't I don't want them as a client. If they do, then we don't have to talk about values except for when we aren't sure why we are doing something or why we should/should't be doing something.





On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 11:29 AM, <***@tobymayer.com> wrote:



Is it just me, or do none of these comments actually add anything useful to this conversation? —except perhaps to illustrate the point that the term "Agile" is misunderstood, misappropriated and doesn't add value to the work we want to do.



---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote:

Hyperagile, eh what!?!

Sent from my iPhone



On Nov 20, 2013, at 9:49 AM, Michael Wollin <***@...> wrote:



Overheard: "Let's be agile and skip the stand-up."



On Nov 19, 2013, at 11:09 PM, Adam Sroka <***@...> wrote:





"Everyone is doing Agile" near as I can tell means that they have daily meetings and hire scrummasters who've never done it either.

[Adam Sroka]

Post by Jean Richardson
Adam, what you say here makes me want to read more of your off-list
writing. I’ll go search for it.

Thanks.

Post by Jean Richardson
I’m not sure if it addresses Tobias’s concern.

Like I said, I don't really have a solution. However, I do think Agile adds
something to the conversation if only that it brings us together and
suggests that we consider valuing some sensible things over some other
things.

Also, like I said, maybe 80% is about what we do and 20% is about what we
value/believe. So, Agile might be some significant subset of that 20%.
That's a lot more than nothing.

Post by Jean Richardson
--- Jean
*Sent:* Thursday, November 21, 2013 7:39 AM
*Subject:* Re: [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] RE: that preso on &quot;When Can We
Stop Doing Agile&quot;
I'm not so sure that misunderstanding/misappropriating is the core of the
issue. Agile seems to have come to mean a lot of different things to a lot
1) For some it is merely a marketing term. Despite the intent of the
original authors I think this has become the dominant interpretation.
2) For some it is a philosophy, almost a way of life.
3) For some it is a call to action. I think this is closest to the
original authors' intent.
The thing that all three have in common is that none are particularly
actionable on their own. So, we can talk about Agile and what it means to
try to come to an understanding about what we value, but at the end of the
day we need to investigate a whole bunch of ideas and approaches to decide
what we will actually do.
The advantage of talking about values is that if we are truly honest with
one another about what we value and can find some alignment it can be
incredibly unifying and empowering for the whole team. The problem is that
if we aren't honest and/or don't find alignment we end up stuck. We have no
new information about how to move forward.
The other problem is that we can agree about what we value, honestly or
not, and still not act (or know how to act) accordingly. This is analogous
to politics, IMO. Politicians spend a lot of time talking about what they
believe, but as a voter I am far more interested in what they actually do.
This is a complex, nuanced issue, and I don't have a solution. All I can
say is that as a coach I have found it valuable to focus on what we do 80%
of the time. It helps to know what the client values and if those values
align with my own. If they don't I don't want them as a client. If they do,
then we don't have to talk about values except for when we aren't sure why
we are doing something or why we should/should't be doing something.
Is it just me, or do none of these comments actually add anything useful
to this conversation? —except perhaps to illustrate the point that the term
"Agile" is misunderstood, misappropriated and doesn't add value to the work
we want to do.
Hyperagile, eh what!?!
Sent from my iPhone
Overheard: "Let's be agile and skip the stand-up."
"Everyone is doing Agile" near as I can tell means that they have daily
meetings and hire scrummasters who've never done it either.

[s***@tobymayer.com]

Hi Adam.


I like the "call to action" aspect. With this, we can move forward and not worry too much about terminology. The action we are called to is first-off the 'action' of opening our minds to a new way of thinking. Closely following this we need to start interacting differently, with our colleagues, or work practices, and our customers. I agree, the measure of usefulness is in the action, not in the talk. I'm currently learning ASL and the teacher (a dancer) continually emphasizes the need to actually do, not just understand. It is only in the act of signing that signing becomes innate. No about of study will give us that. Same with Agile ideas. We have to immediately put them into practice, try, fail, try differently...
Tobias




---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote:

I'm not so sure that misunderstanding/misappropriating is the core of the issue. Agile seems to have come to mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people:

1) For some it is merely a marketing term. Despite the intent of the original authors I think this has become the dominant interpretation.


2) For some it is a philosophy, almost a way of life.


3) For some it is a call to action. I think this is closest to the original authors' intent.


The thing that all three have in common is that none are particularly actionable on their own. So, we can talk about Agile and what it means to try to come to an understanding about what we value, but at the end of the day we need to investigate a whole bunch of ideas and approaches to decide what we will actually do.


The advantage of talking about values is that if we are truly honest with one another about what we value and can find some alignment it can be incredibly unifying and empowering for the whole team. The problem is that if we aren't honest and/or don't find alignment we end up stuck. We have no new information about how to move forward.


The other problem is that we can agree about what we value, honestly or not, and still not act (or know how to act) accordingly. This is analogous to politics, IMO. Politicians spend a lot of time talking about what they believe, but as a voter I am far more interested in what they actually do.


This is a complex, nuanced issue, and I don't have a solution. All I can say is that as a coach I have found it valuable to focus on what we do 80% of the time. It helps to know what the client values and if those values align with my own. If they don't I don't want them as a client. If they do, then we don't have to talk about values except for when we aren't sure why we are doing something or why we should/should't be doing something.





On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 11:29 AM, <***@... mailto:***@...> wrote:
Is it just me, or do none of these comments actually add anything useful to this conversation? —except perhaps to illustrate the point that the term "Agile" is misunderstood, misappropriated and doesn't add value to the work we want to do.


---In ***@yahoogroups.com mailto:***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote:

Hyperagile, eh what!?!

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 20, 2013, at 9:49 AM, Michael Wollin <***@... mailto:***@...> wrote:



Overheard: "Let's be agile and skip the stand-up."

On Nov 19, 2013, at 11:09 PM, Adam Sroka < mailto:***@...adam.sroka@... mailto:***@...> wrote:

"Everyone is doing Agile" near as I can tell means that they have daily meetings and hire scrummasters who've never done it either.

[srinivas chillara]

The except part you mention is hugely relevant and useful. 
cheers 
Srinivas


________________________________
From: "***@tobymayer.com" <***@tobymayer.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 20 November 2013 9:59 PM
Subject: [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] RE: that preso on "When Can We Stop Doing Agile"



 
Is it just me, or do none of these comments actually add anything useful to this conversation? —except perhaps to illustrate the point that the term "Agile" is misunderstood, misappropriated and doesn't add value to the work we want to do.


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote:


Hyperagile, eh what!?! 

Sent from my iPhone


On Nov 20, 2013, at 9:49 AM, Michael Wollin <***@...> wrote:
 

Post by Michael Wollin
Overheard: "Let's be agile and skip the stand-up."
"Everyone is doing Agile" near as I can tell means that they have daily meetings and hire scrummasters who've never done it either. 

[Andrew Burrows]

People are the constant.

Post by Michael Wollin
Overheard: "Let's be agile and skip the stand-up."
"Everyone is doing Agile" near as I can tell means that they have daily
meetings and hire scrummasters who've never done it either.

[Jean Richardson]

Hi, Tobias, great to see you on the list.



Slides, being what they are, don’t always tell the whole story. That question was certainly discussed in the room. The upshot, really, is this: You can stop any time you want to. What is your objective and will stopping help you? Frankly, many people in that room don’t know what they can get from agile.



Are you meaning to point to the difference between “doing agile” and “being agile?” I think I’ll need to point back to the good old audience analysis conundrum. I really used the topic that came up in the day of the request—verbatim. This is not a group that has ascended to the philosophical plane of “doing agile” versus “being agile.”



--- Jean



From: ***@yahoogroups.com [mailto:***@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ***@tobymayer.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2013 10:23 AM
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] RE: that preso on &quot;When Can We Stop Doing Agile&quot;





Lots of interesting data, but it leaves the question open: When can we stop doing Agile? I'm guessing that is deliberate :/ or maybe the underlying message is "we can't, not yet". I'm not really sure.



I was intrigued by the title of this thread because I've been feeling for a while that the term "Agile" too often gets in the way of doing what is right—doing what is better. There are many today who have had poor, even lousy experiences of "doing Agile" and it has tainted their thinking against this way of working. Sometimes quite justifiably. A few of us in my place of work are looking at how to recast the message in more widely-acceptable terms, using non-uppercase words. Drawing from Dan Pink, we are focusing on autonomy, mastery and purpose, drawing on improv we are focusing on deep collaboration, drawing on Boal we are focusing on confrontation... and drawing on Bill & Ted we are focusing on excellence :)



Agile strives for a state where people work in harmony, embracing tension and differences, producing compelling products for excited customers, with the highest possible quality within the given constraints. I don't believe I need to label myself Agile to strive for these things.



So when can we stop doing Agile? Maybe now, today.



Tobias





---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote:

I am sitting here working on a blog post and just realized that I had not followed up on my commitment to respond to Ron Jeffries’ invitation to tell you all how that presentation went a week ago last Friday.



Well, it seemed to go fine, though it felt a bit difficult at the time. The crowd was larger and quieter than is usual for that venue. The organizers told me that they had never seen at least 30% of the audience before, so they must have come to hear the topic.



Only one person in attendance indicated that he was not a member of the project management community. He was a senior engineer who seemed to have a lot of agile background. You may be happy to hear, as I was, that I had not betrayed the agile community during my presentation. Maintaining the message when speaking across philosophical boundaries can be a challenge. Many people stayed after to talk and a couple attended a related follow on discussion the next week hosted by Agile PDX. One person confronted me after everyone else had left to inform me that this would all be a lot easier if executive leadership was already on board . . . (?!). Apparently, a number of people who worked in the company that provided the space for the meeting went back to their work groups and talked about the presentation in positive terms.



I expect part of the reason the audience was quiet was that the data was sobering, it was coming pretty fast, and it was coming from both PMI and non-PMI sources. I may also not have been at my best as a presenter. If you want to see the slides, you can display a PDF of them here: http://azuregate.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/When-Can-We-Stop-Doing-Agile-slides1.pdf



--- Jean




gate.site.jpg




Jean Richardson

Azure Gate Consulting

~ Repatterning the Human Experience of Work



AzureGate.net

[phone]

***@...

[s***@yahoo.com]

Hello Tobais,


Dan Pink - I have heard of.


Can you please throw more light on Boal as well as Bill & Ted - and provide us with pointers to their work/s? Their names don't ring and bell and I don't believe I have come across their names or their work yet. Hence the request.


Thanks and With Best Regards


Shyam

---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote:

Lots of interesting data, but it leaves the question open: When can we stop doing Agile? I'm guessing that is deliberate :/ or maybe the underlying message is "we can't, not yet". I'm not really sure.


I was intrigued by the title of this thread because I've been feeling for a while that the term "Agile" too often gets in the way of doing what is right—doing what is better. There are many today who have had poor, even lousy experiences of "doing Agile" and it has tainted their thinking against this way of working. Sometimes quite justifiably. A few of us in my place of work are looking at how to recast the message in more widely-acceptable terms, using non-uppercase words. Drawing from Dan Pink, we are focusing on autonomy, mastery and purpose, drawing on improv we are focusing on deep collaboration, drawing on Boal we are focusing on confrontation... and drawing on Bill & Ted we are focusing on excellence :)


Agile strives for a state where people work in harmony, embracing tension and differences, producing compelling products for excited customers, with the highest possible quality within the given constraints. I don't believe I need to label myself Agile to strive for these things.


So when can we stop doing Agile? Maybe now, today.


Tobias

[s***@tobymayer.com]

Hi Shyam.
Wikipedia is always a good place to start...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augusto_Boal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_&_Ted's_Excellent_Adventure
Tobias :)


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote:

Hello Tobais,


Dan Pink - I have heard of.


Can you please throw more light on Boal as well as Bill & Ted - and provide us with pointers to their work/s? Their names don't ring and bell and I don't believe I have come across their names or their work yet. Hence the request.


Thanks and With Best Regards


Shyam

---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote:

Lots of interesting data, but it leaves the question open: When can we stop doing Agile? I'm guessing that is deliberate :/ or maybe the underlying message is "we can't, not yet". I'm not really sure.


I was intrigued by the title of this thread because I've been feeling for a while that the term "Agile" too often gets in the way of doing what is right—doing what is better. There are many today who have had poor, even lousy experiences of "doing Agile" and it has tainted their thinking against this way of working. Sometimes quite justifiably. A few of us in my place of work are looking at how to recast the message in more widely-acceptable terms, using non-uppercase words. Drawing from Dan Pink, we are focusing on autonomy, mastery and purpose, drawing on improv we are focusing on deep collaboration, drawing on Boal we are focusing on confrontation... and drawing on Bill & Ted we are focusing on excellence :)


Agile strives for a state where people work in harmony, embracing tension and differences, producing compelling products for excited customers, with the highest possible quality within the given constraints. I don't believe I need to label myself Agile to strive for these things.


So when can we stop doing Agile? Maybe now, today.


Tobias

[Pierre Neis]

This is a bloody question...so the answer should be bloody too... I'll stop
when I'm done!

Like philosophies, agile is a conceptual goal on continuous
improvement/learning/reacting/doing/ failing/ meeting/ discussing/ sharing/
aligning/...ing

The concept of agile got its power by introducing a "cultural" consensus
without harming individual cultures and beliefs.

In extension, if we achieve agility means that the whole humanity will use
this as a standard, the whole would be uniformed/standardized like
machines. Hopefully, this will be never be done.

Kind regards, cordialement, mit freundlichen Grüssen,

*Pierre E. Neis, **psm, cspo, csp*
*Agile Lean Coach/Trainer - Change Architect*


19 place Bleech |L-7610 Larochette | Luxembourg
M: [phone]

*email*: ***@we-and-co.com<http://s.wisestamp.com/links?url=mailto%3Apierre.neis%40we-and-co.com&sn=cGllcnJlbmVpc0BnbWFpbC5jb20%3D>
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Kind regards, cordialement, mit freundlichen Grüssen,

*Pierre E. Neis, **psm, cspo, csp*
*Agile Lean Coach/Trainer - Change Architect*


19 place Bleech |L-7610 Larochette | Luxembourg
M: [phone]

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Post by s***@tobymayer.com
Hi Shyam.
Wikipedia is always a good place to start...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augusto_Boal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_&_Ted's_Excellent_Adventure
Tobias :)
Hello Tobais,
Dan Pink - I have heard of.
Can you please throw more light on Boal as well as Bill & Ted - and
provide us with pointers to their work/s? Their names don't ring and bell
and I don't believe I have come across their names or their work yet.
Hence the request.
Thanks and With Best Regards
Shyam
Lots of interesting data, but it leaves the question open: When can we
stop doing Agile? I'm guessing that is deliberate :/ or maybe the
underlying message is "we can't, not yet". I'm not really sure.
I was intrigued by the title of this thread because I've been feeling for
a while that the term "Agile" too often gets in the way of doing what is
right—doing what is better. There are many today who have had poor, even
lousy experiences of "doing Agile" and it has tainted their thinking
against this way of working. Sometimes quite justifiably. A few of us in my
place of work are looking at how to recast the message in more
widely-acceptable terms, using non-uppercase words. Drawing from Dan Pink,
we are focusing on autonomy, mastery and purpose, drawing on improv we are
focusing on deep collaboration, drawing on Boal we are focusing on
confrontation... and drawing on Bill & Ted we are focusing on excellence :)
Agile strives for a state where people work in harmony, embracing tension
and differences, producing compelling products for excited customers, with
the highest possible quality within the given constraints. I don't believe
I need to label myself Agile to strive for these things.
So when can we stop doing Agile? Maybe now, today.
Tobias

[Ron Jeffries]

Pierre,

The concept of agile got its power by introducing a "cultural" consensus without harming individual cultures and beliefs.
In extension, if we achieve agility means that the whole humanity will use this as a standard, the whole would be uniformed/standardized like machines. Hopefully, this will be never be done.

The first may be true. The second does not follow.

Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com
If it is more than you need, it is waste. -- Andy Seidl