Discussion:
[SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] Is Agile truly scaleable?
alexsmithda@yahoo.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
2016-04-11 08:50:19 UTC
Permalink
In the last company I worked for, I found Agile to be clumsy and un-scaleable. Bearing all of this in mind, can it actually be scaleable (SAFe seems like a flawed mutation of Agile rather than a genuine solution). This article makes me believe that this could be a better methodology: Slaying the Agile Dragon: The age of agile will soon be over http://goo.gl/Q0h5ye. What do you all suggest? How do you make it work?



http://goo.gl/Q0h5ye

Slaying the Agile Dragon: The age of agile will soon be ... http://goo.gl/Q0h5ye Agile is clumsy, un-scaleable and lacks any appreciation of software architecture. So why do people worship at the Church of Agile? It is time for change; Winter is...



View on goo.gl http://goo.gl/Q0h5ye
Preview by Yahoo
Nayan Hajratwala nayan@chikli.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
2016-04-11 14:49:39 UTC
Permalink
FWIW, this topic was cross posted to the XP mailing list a few days back. Here’s the thread: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/extremeprogramming/conversations/topics/160050 <https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/extremeprogramming/conversations/topics/160050>

---
In the last company I worked for, I found Agile to be clumsy and un-scaleable. Bearing all of this in mind, can it actually be scaleable (SAFe seems like a flawed mutation of Agile rather than a genuine solution). This article makes me believe that this could be a better methodology: Slaying the Agile Dragon: The age of agile will soon be over <http://goo.gl/Q0h5ye>. What do you all suggest? How do you make it work?
<http://goo.gl/Q0h5ye>
Slaying the Agile Dragon: The age of agile will soon be ... <http://goo.gl/Q0h5ye>
Agile is clumsy, un-scaleable and lacks any appreciation of software architecture. So why do people worship at the Church of Agile? It is time for change; Winter is...
View on goo.gl <http://goo.gl/Q0h5ye>
Preview by Yahoo
Cass Dalton cassdalton73@gmail.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
2016-04-11 16:08:13 UTC
Permalink
It seems weird to say "The age of Agile will soon be over" and then list a
methodology that sounds very much like a good implementation of agile.
Most of the issues the author has with Scrum are issues with poor
implementations of Scrum. The methodology he describes is so similar to
Scrum that I would argue it is a version of Scrum that has been tailored to
the organization's needs.
The author complains that Agile's focus on the end user is a fault and that
"the last person who knows the right answer is the customer." He obviously
hasn't seen real, functional Agile in person because it is Agile's
empirical nature that directly addresses this issue. Agile is designed to
embrace changing requirements and the vast majority of requirements changes
come from the customer or end user not knowing what they want. So Agile,
in fact, DOES address the issue of customers and end users not being able
to articulate what they want. When you work with stakeholders sprint after
sprint after sprint, you start extracting the REAL requirements out of the
interactions and those real requirements go into the product backlog to be
worked. I would argue that the failures he has seen have not been a
failure of Agile or Scrum, but a failure of the POs that have been driving
the PB.


He also implies that agile makes architecture take a back seat to tactical
progress. This can be true in a junior or inexperienced team with a
short-sighted PO. But a good PO will prioritize with both short and long

term goals in mind and a good development team will not create overarching

architecture that will just get trashed as soon as the requirements change

from the end user not being able to articulate what they want.


"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss..."


-Cass
Post by Nayan Hajratwala ***@chikli.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
FWIW, this topic was cross posted to the XP mailing list a few days back.
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/extremeprogramming/conversations/topics/160050
---
In the last company I worked for, I found Agile to be clumsy and
un-scaleable. Bearing all of this in mind, can it actually be scaleable
(SAFe seems like a flawed mutation of Agile rather than a genuine
solution). This article makes me believe that this could be a better
methodology: Slaying the Agile Dragon: The age of agile will soon be over
<http://goo.gl/Q0h5ye>. What do you all suggest? How do you make it work?
[image: image] <http://goo.gl/Q0h5ye>
Slaying the Agile Dragon: The age of agile will soon be ...
<http://goo.gl/Q0h5ye>
Agile is clumsy, un-scaleable and lacks any appreciation of software
architecture. So why do people worship at the Church of Agile? It is time
for change; Winter is...
View on goo.gl <http://goo.gl/Q0h5ye>
Preview by Yahoo
srinivas chillara ceezone@yahoo.co.in [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
2016-04-11 16:30:44 UTC
Permalink
Maybe some one just hoping to gain attention; I could write a post "Beyond post agile"

     or "beeeeee a8*!e , not dooooooo A8*!e". What a bunch of clowns we come across all day, everyday.
I dare say, the age of Fragile will go on...

cheersSrinivas


From: "Cass Dalton ***@gmail.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, 11 April 2016 9:38 PM
Subject: Re: [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] Is Agile truly scaleable?

  It seems weird to say "The age of Agile will soon be over" and then list a methodology that sounds very much like a good implementation of agile.  Most of the issues the author has with Scrum are issues with poor implementations of Scrum. The methodology he describes is so similar to Scrum that I would argue it is a version of Scrum that has been tailored to the organization's needs. The author complains that Agile's focus on the end user is a fault and that "the last person who knows the right answer is the customer."  He obviously hasn't seen real, functional Agile in person because it is Agile's empirical nature that directly addresses this issue.  Agile is designed to embrace changing requirements and the vast majority of requirements changes come from the customer or end user not knowing what they want.  So Agile, in fact, DOES address the issue of customers and end users not being able to articulate what they want.  When you work with stakeholders sprint after sprint after sprint, you start extracting the REAL requirements out of the interactions and those real requirements go into the product backlog to be worked.  I would argue that the failures he has seen have not been a failure of Agile or Scrum, but a failure of the POs that have been driving the PB.
He also implies that agile makes architecture take a back seat to tactical progress.  This can be true in a junior or inexperienced team with a short-sighted PO.  But a good PO will prioritize with both short and long term goals in mind and a good development team will not create overarching architecture that will just get trashed as soon as the requirements change from the end user not being able to articulate what they want.
"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss..."
-Cass
On Mon, Apr 11, 2016 at 10:49 AM, Nayan Hajratwala ***@chikli.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] <***@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

FWIW, this topic was cross posted to the XP mailing list a few days back. Here’s the thread: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/extremeprogramming/conversations/topics/160050
---
Nayan Hajratwala - 734.658.6032 - http://agileshrugged.com - @nhajratw

On Apr 11, 2016, at 4:50 AM, ***@yahoo.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT] <***@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

In the last company I worked for, I found Agile to be clumsy and un-scaleable. Bearing all of this in mind, can it actually be scaleable (SAFe seems like a flawed mutation of Agile rather than a genuine solution). This article makes me believe that this could be a better methodology: Slaying the Agile Dragon: The age of agile will soon be over. What do you all suggest? How do you make it work?

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| | | | Slaying the Agile Dragon: The age of agile will soon be ...Agile is clumsy, un-scaleable and lacks any appreciation of software architecture. So why do people worship at the Church of Agile? It is time for change; Winter is... | |
| View on goo.gl | Preview by Yahoo  |
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'Steve Ash' steve@ootac.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
2016-04-11 18:47:24 UTC
Permalink
I have left a comment to what, I consider, an ill-informed article but for
those of you not inclined to read it, I copy my comment below:



It does seem that the author has been 'exposed' to very poor Agile
implementations!



Firstly, the word 'methodology' is defined as 'the study of methods' (well
on this side of the Atlantic it is!!).



If the word is being used as a synonym for 'method', it implies that the
author is looking for a 'recipe book' approach ie take specified amounts of
ingredients, use specified techniques to produce your perfect dish.



This is not what Agile is all about. The Manifesto and Principles are the
only 'defined' aspects of Agile; the named Agile Frameworks (not methods or
methodologies) seek to give advice about various aspects of development.



Scrum makes no mention of governance or technical practices - on purpose!
It expects organisations and teams to make their own decisions in these
areas. I have no idea where the author gets the idea that Scrum has added
all these extra roles; not in the Scrum Guide now and never had been.



eXtreme Programming concentrates on the technical practices.



DSDM gives the most advice about governance and the responsibilities that
should be covered; the development process framework advice is very similar
to Scrum but was first published 6 years before Scrum.



'New kid on the block', SAFe, extends the Agile concepts of team-based Agile
to the Enterprise. it isn't perfect (what is?); I have some reservations
about the vocabulary but it is a great attempt at codifying Agile for scale.



The whole point of Agile is to provide a Philosophy (Manifesto) and
Principles to work within and now an 'Agile Toolbox' of techniques (for
governance, and technical) and expects people to use their intelligence to
adapt them to their specific situation.



If you expect Agile to be the 'silver bullet' 'recipe book' so that you can
start on page 1 and work through things step by step, then you will fail;
don't blame Agile for your own failure.



What the author is proposing is just another Agile Framework to address what
he sees as shortcomings of current Agile Frameworks; a worthy exercise but
it will never be the answer to all situations; it will need to be configured
just as all the other Frameworks need to be configured.



My own view is that his effort would be better spent getting rid of the
concept of 'projects' and promote the concept of 'product development' and
the implications of that.



Steve Ash

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lrng_lnx@yahoo.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
2016-07-06 20:57:52 UTC
Permalink
Well said, Mr. Ash!! There is a lot of incorrect information out there because Agile and Scrum are only buzzwords to so many. "We do two week Sprints, so we are using Scrum to be Agile" is commonly heard.

The four values and twelve principles in the Agile Manifesto http://www.agilemanifesto.org/ are the baseline definition for what can be considered Agile.

Coming about five years before, Scrum was introduced. Its definition can be found in The Scrum Guide http://www.scrumguides.org/index.html. More recently, The Nexus Guide https://www.scrum.org/Resources/The-Nexus-Guide for scaling Scrum was released.

I have had less exposure to SAFe, but see it as an attempt to allow organizations to maintain the status quo of non-lean systems via structure while applying some agile features.
Don Gray don@donaldegray.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
2016-07-06 21:28:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@yahoo.com [SCRUMDEVELOPMENT]
We do two week Sprints, so we are using Scrum to be Agile" is commonly heard.
A little piece of me dies every time I hear a person say “We’re doing Agile.”

Sincerely,

Don Gray - Exploring Human Systems in Action
(336)414-4645

Join me for the next:
Coaching Beyond the Team <http://www.donaldegray.com/whatido/coaching-beyond-the-team-influencing-the-organization/>
September 13 & 14, 2016
Costa Mesa, CA, USA

We don't need better solutions, we need better thinking about problems.
attributed to Russell Ackoff

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